Freethought & Rationalism Archive

God's Will Hunting · 12-19-2004, 10:43 AM

Do any of our resident historians have more information on this? Sounds interesting at first glance.

http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html

jbernier · 12-19-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God's Will Hunting

Do any of our resident historians have more information on this? Sounds interesting at first glance.

http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html

I think that this is an excellent of someone making valid observations and drawing absolutely the wrong conclusions therefrom. I have no doubt that the Gospel writers (and Paul, also) drew upon imperial imagery and language to present Jesus; I think that is quite clear. However, that does not warrant the conclusion that the gospels are just a re-telling of Julius Caesar's life. I think it much more plausible to argue that these sorts of imagery and language were current in the first century and that the Gospel writers made use of them. It is kind of like Star Wars: Sure there is a Senate; yeah, it probably has some literary relation to the US Senate; does that mean that the trilogies are a corrupted re-telling of American history?

Now regarding some of the particulars of the argument, let us look at a paragraph from the synopsis posted online:

Quote:

Corruptions in the copying of texts, misinterpretations in translations—Gallia transposed to Galilaea or Caesar’s murderer,

I am aware of no textual evidence that 'Galilaea' was originally 'Gallia' in the Gospel texts.

Quote:

the conspirator (Cassius) Longinus, becoming the centurion Longinus stabbing Jesus on the cross

Longinus actually does not appear in the Gospel accounts. This is later extrapolation on the texts.

Quote:

the Gospel proves to be the history of the Roman Civil War, a ‘mis-telling’ of the Life of Caesar—from the Rubicon to his assassination—mutated into the narrative of Jesus: from the Jordan to his crucifixion.

It seems like a real 'mutation' to go from one of the most powerful men of his day to a crucified peasant in a backwater of the Roman Empire. That the literary tellings of Julius Caesar's life might have provided some of the structure for the Gospel narratives, sure; that does not mean that the Gospel writers ever imagined that they were talking about Caesar. One would also have a hard time explaining such passages as that (for instance) within the Gospel of John in which Pilate is said to have to choose between loyalty to Caesar and sympathy to Christ. Sure, the Caesar referenced in that passage is not Julius but it becomes a bit bizarre to say that one must choose between loyalty to a long-dead Caesar and the current emperor. It seems to me that there would be too many anomalies of this sort under this way of reading the Biblical texts - just too much evidence that does not fit.

The Evil One · 12-19-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbernier

It is kind of like Star Wars: Sure there is a Senate; yeah, it probably has some literary relation to the US Senate; does that mean that the trilogies are a corrupted re-telling of American history?

Ah, wrong Senate. The literary model for the Senate in Star Wars is very clearly the Roman Senate.

Other than that, I agree that the linked theory doesn't seem to have a great deal going for it at first glance. Biggest strike against it that I can see is that the guy appears to propose that Christianity has its roots in Caesar's post-mortem cult, when that cult was very different in theology, practices and membership than early Christianity.

Juliana · 12-19-2004, 01:28 PM

Greetings all,

this, if true and it looks like, must be the discovery of the century (millenium). The historical Jesus was Caesar according to this website:
http://www.carotta.de
‘This report is of the same order of importance as the scientific discoveries of Darwin and Galileo… Carotta’s discovery will turn the entire history of civilization upside down.’
– Paul Cliteur, Ph.D.

What do you think of it? Please look at it first and don't just say it's cr**. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but it is fascinating and I haven't found any factual errors yet.

Juliana

Chris Weimer · 12-19-2004, 02:07 PM

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=107475

Atheos · 12-19-2004, 02:41 PM

His father was a woman?

Sorry, Life of Brian flashback. :devil3:

</DERAIL>

Toto · 12-19-2004, 02:46 PM

The thread that cweb255 references is to Atwill's theories.

from here

Quote:

The spreading of the Christian religion for the most part occurred among Roman soldiers.

I doubt that this was the case before Constantine. So that's not a good start.

But there is some novel speculation on Tacitus here - that the word chrestiani refers to speculators:

Quote:

Also cited is the so-called persecution of Christians by Nero on the basis of a citation from Tacitus:

After the burning of Rome…

'…despite public aid, despite generous donations by the emperor and expiatory sacrifices to the Gods, the dreadful rumour could not be scotched that the fire was set on orders. And so, Nero, in order to end this rumor, revealed the culprits and imposed the most exquisite punishments on those who were hated for their outrageous acts and who were called by the people chrestiani.'[283]

Many have wanted to understand this to mean the Christians. At a later date the hand of a copyist has even inserted an explanation of the word chrestiani:

'This name derives from Christ, who was executed by the procurator Pontius Pilatus under the government of Tiberius.'[284]

That this is an interpolation is formally indicated on the one hand by the scholiastic nature of the sentence, on the other hand by the fact that chrestiani is written with an 'e', but Christ with an 'i'. But the logical break in the report is more weighty. That is, the story continues with a very logical consequent conclusion by Nero. Construction speculators were suspected of being behind those who set the fire alight:

'For no one had the courage to check the spread of the fire, because again and again numerous people hindered its extinction with threats, others had openly thrown firebrands and cried aloud that they had a principal standing behind them, whether doing this so they could plunder unrestrainedly, or because they were really ordered to do so.'[285]

In order to not be taken for one of the instigators or one of their accomplices, Nero imposed draconian punishments on the incendiaries and their principals—construction speculators who expected to make a huge profit from the reconstruction. The former were burned alive, the latter torn to pieces by dogs:

'And at first those who confessed were arrested, then on the basis of their testimony a further large circle of people were arrested, and they were found guilty not only of the crime of arson but also of hatred of humanity. And those at death’s door suffered mockery: they were wrapped in animal skins and torn to pieces by dogs, or they were (nailed to a cross and destined for the death by fire) burned after day’s end as night lights.'[286]

One recognizes by the symmetry of the punishments that Nero has here applied the Talion law: the incendiaries were burned and those torn to pieces by dogs can only have been the speculators, the 'bloodsuckers'. Therefore the word chrestiani here can only mean the chrêstai, the speculators, as we have seen above in Suetonius’ report on Claudius.[287] Then their characterization too does make sense, namely, that they were 'hated by the people because of their outrageous acts'.

So many theories, so little time to investigate them all.

Juliana · 12-19-2004, 03:19 PM

I've read texts of and about Atwill on the web. To me he seems to be a plagiator taking at will what he finds with others and then arbitrarily putting it together. Carotta seems to be the first to have seen that Jesus is Divus Julius as he was transmitted through history. His first publications (in German newspapers) date from 1988. Then after ten years of research he published 'War Jesus Caesar?' in German in 1999.
The funny thing is there are even two clerics (one even a Jesuit) who recommend this work, see: http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html
Wonder what their superiors say?

Juliana

Heurismus · 12-19-2004, 03:32 PM

Hello and welcome.

There is also a theory that the Roman Piso family fabricated the story of Jesus. I will not commit any further conjecture here other than say that there are too few erudite researchers who report the unbiased story. There is always some financial lure to wildly theorise without systematic and thorough 'proof'. Fascinating however, so I will not dismiss this without examination.

Mmm, just took a quick look. I am intrigued. However I am also suspicious. The timing is too coincidental, or is it. A nice Christmas poser I think, and questions for an old professor are just forming away here. Thanks for the interesting post. What of Sol Invictus and the perceived wisdom of other scholarship, how can it all be refuted or revised. This is going to be even tougher than getting that damned camel through the eye of a needle.
But I await the debate and disputatio with almost bated breathe

.

Cynthia of Syracuse · 12-19-2004, 03:50 PM

This looks more like BC&H.

12-19-2004, 10:43 AM	#1
God's Will Hunting Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: usa Posts: 93	Carotta: Jesus was Caeser Do any of our resident historians have more information on this? Sounds interesting at first glance. http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html

12-19-2004, 01:28 PM	#4
Juliana Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 154	Jesus was a Roman - guess who Greetings all, this, if true and it looks like, must be the discovery of the century (millenium). The historical Jesus was Caesar according to this website: http://www.carotta.de ‘This report is of the same order of importance as the scientific discoveries of Darwin and Galileo… Carotta’s discovery will turn the entire history of civilization upside down.’ – Paul Cliteur, Ph.D. What do you think of it? Please look at it first and don't just say it's cr**. I know it sounds absolutely crazy, but it is fascinating and I haven't found any factual errors yet. Juliana

12-19-2004, 03:50 PM	#10
Cynthia of Syracuse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 2,821	Mod note This looks more like BC&H.

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12-19-2004, 02:07 PM	#5
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=107475

12-19-2004, 02:41 PM	#6
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	His father was a woman? Sorry, Life of Brian flashback. :devil3: </DERAIL>

12-19-2004, 03:19 PM	#8
Juliana Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 154	I've read texts of and about Atwill on the web. To me he seems to be a plagiator taking at will what he finds with others and then arbitrarily putting it together. Carotta seems to be the first to have seen that Jesus is Divus Julius as he was transmitted through history. His first publications (in German newspapers) date from 1988. Then after ten years of research he published 'War Jesus Caesar?' in German in 1999. The funny thing is there are even two clerics (one even a Jesuit) who recommend this work, see: http://www.carotta.de/eindex.html Wonder what their superiors say? Juliana

12-19-2004, 03:32 PM	#9
Heurismus Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: West London Posts: 2,337	Hello and welcome. There is also a theory that the Roman Piso family fabricated the story of Jesus. I will not commit any further conjecture here other than say that there are too few erudite researchers who report the unbiased story. There is always some financial lure to wildly theorise without systematic and thorough 'proof'. Fascinating however, so I will not dismiss this without examination. Mmm, just took a quick look. I am intrigued. However I am also suspicious. The timing is too coincidental, or is it. A nice Christmas poser I think, and questions for an old professor are just forming away here. Thanks for the interesting post. What of Sol Invictus and the perceived wisdom of other scholarship, how can it all be refuted or revised. This is going to be even tougher than getting that damned camel through the eye of a needle. But I await the debate and disputatio with almost bated breathe .

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