Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-21-2006, 06:09 AM

I see many examples today of people wondering why Jews don't have anything about Heaven and Hell, which of course is because Heaven and Hell are pagan concepts.

One thing we know is that the oldest texts of the New Testament in Greek use both the words Hades and Tartarus, and the description of these places by Christians matches the Greek descriptions of these places.

I've read Josephus' commentary on Hades to the Greeks, whcih describes a his Jewish view of Hades (very similar to the ideas fo Christian heaven, hell, and purgatory), but this seems itself to have been already influenced by the pagans themselves.

Does anyone have a good reference to ancient pagan descriptions of Hades and Tartarus? I'm looking for origional pagan texts, not modern summaries.

Thanks

Malachi151 · 10-21-2006, 07:08 AM

Ahh, found one good quote from Plato:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13726/13726-8.txt

Apology, Crito, and Phaedo of Socrates, by Plato

Quote:

those who appear to have passed a middle kind of life,
proceeding to Acheron, and embarking in the vessels they have, on these
arrive at the lake, and there dwell; and when they are purified, and
have suffered punishment for the iniquities they may have committed,
they are set free, and each receives the reward of his good deeds,
according to his deserts. But those who appear to be incurable, through
the magnitude of their offenses, either from having committed many and
great sacrileges, or many unjust and lawless murders, or other similar
crimes, these a suitable destiny hurls into Tartarus, whence they never
come forth. 144. But those who appear to have been guilty of curable yet
great offenses--such as those who, through anger, have committed any
violence against father or mother, and have lived the remainder of their
life in a state of penitence, or they who have become homicides in a
similar manner--these must, of necessity, fall into Tartarus. But after
they have fallen, and have been there for a year, the wave casts them
forth, the homicides into Cocytus, but the parricides and matricides
into Pyriphlegethon. But when, being borne along, they arrive at the
Acherusian lake, there they cry out to and invoke, some those whom they
slew, others those whom they injured, and, invoking them, they entreat
and implore them to suffer them to go out into the lake, and to receive
them, and if they persuade them, they go out, and are freed from their
sufferings, but if not, they are borne back to Tartarus, and thence
again to the rivers. And they do not cease from suffering this until
they have persuaded those whom they have injured, for this sentence was
imposed on them by the judges. 145. But those who are found to have
lived an eminently holy life, these are they who, being freed and set at
large from these regions in the earth as from a prison, arrive at the
pure abode above, and dwell on the upper parts of the earth. And among
these, they who have sufficiently purified themselves by philosophy
shall live without bodies, throughout all future time, and shall arrive
at habitations yet more beautiful than these which it is neither easy to
describe, nor at present is there sufficient time for the purpose."

lpetrich · 10-21-2006, 11:24 AM

The Hell Words of the Bible shows us how the words for "hell" are translated in various Bible translations:

"Sheol" is found only in the Old Testament, which has no descriptions of what it's like in there.

The New Testament has "Gehenna", "Hades", and "Tartarus", with "Tartarus" occuring only once. Tartarus was the Hellenic-pagan Hell, and Hades was the more usual Hellenic-pagan destination, a place where one would have a drab and shadowy existence.

Gehenna was originally a smoldering garbage dump near Jerusalem, and the Gehenna of the NT is closest to the common view of Hell as a place where you get burned alive forever and ever and ever. There are indirect references to such a place, like a "fiery furnace" and a "lake of fire" where the wicked will be sent to.

One noncanonical NT-related work, the Apocalypse of Peter, goes into a lot of detail about the various punishments of Hell -- Dante's Inferno was not the first, and it certainly does not deserve the blame for the eternal people-fry view of Hell.

And the New Testament was anticipated by Hellenistic-era Jews who believed in eternal punishment, like the authors of the Book of Enoch (more on such literature at Peter Kirby's Early Jewish Writings, including translations).

But I do agree that the notion of eternal punishment likely has pagan origins -- and Zoroastrians also believed that there is a Hell that the wicked will be sent to.

And the Epicureans considered their belief in non-existence after death a liberation from needless fears of eternal torment.

Malachi151 · 10-21-2006, 11:38 AM

Yes, Hellenistic Jews did describe Hades in a way similar to Christian Hell, but I think that this itself came from the "pagan" influence and was a part of the various mixing of Judaism and Hellenism.

I think the writings on Hades and Tartarus by Plato, both quoted in my previous post and in his other works, clearly forshadow the Hellenistic Jewish, and Christian notions of the afterlife, which are quite different from early Judaism.

The "lake of fire" and brimstone ideas clearly comes from the description of the Greek underworld as a place with lakes and rivers of fire and noxious sulfer, which in turn, they themselves admit comes from volcanos.

Loomis · 10-21-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Gehenna was originally a smoldering garbage dump near Jerusalem, and the Gehenna of the NT is closest to the common view of Hell as a place where you get burned alive forever and ever and ever. There are indirect references to such a place, like a "fiery furnace" and a "lake of fire" where the wicked will be sent to.

You might want to read what Leolaia (and John Day) have to say about this.

Leolaia appears to know more about “God” than anyone else on the Internet. :notworthy:

Joan of Bark · 10-22-2006, 02:44 AM

Didn't the Hebrews eventually accept the concept of hell, however? If they did, then I hypothesize it was because they could no longer sell the "if you're a bad boy YHWH will punish you in your lifetime" argument. (Just a hypothesis, I have no evidence to support it).

Malachi151 · 10-22-2006, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Didn't the Hebrews eventually accept the concept of hell, however? If they did, then I hypothesize it was because they could no longer sell the "if you're a bad boy YHWH will punish you in your lifetime" argument. (Just a hypothesis, I have no evidence to support it).

I think that definately had something to do with it.

lpetrich · 10-22-2006, 03:46 PM

I wonder how far back one can trace "Gehenna" or "Ge Hinnom" (Hinnom Valley) for Hell. It is a common term in Rabbinical Judaism, but is apparently absent from Hellenistic Judaism or first-century Judaism (Philo, Josephus). However, the Gospels and early Xians like Justin Martyr had used it.

The Arabic word for Hell, "Jahannam" is clearly derived from this (g -> j often in Arabic).

Looking back further, we find the idea of punishment after death in some ancient Egyptian funerary texts, which were guidebooks for the next world. The Papyrus of Ani, a version of the "Book of the Dead" from Egypt's 19th Dynasty, around 1250 BCE, is the best-known of these.

Many of them feature a judgment of the dead, in which you make a "Negative Confession", as it is usually called. Your heart will be put in a scale with a feather in the opposite pan. You must then assert that you have not committed any of a long list of sins, and if your heart is too weighed down by falsehood and sin, it will be eaten by the part-crocodile part-lion part-hippopotamus monster Ammit.

However, early Mesopotamian afterlife beliefs resembled Hades and Sheol.

It would be interesting to examine the converse, beliefs in "Heaven" or "Paradise". The only part of the New Testament that goes into detail about it is the Book of Revelation, whose New Jerusalem is presumably that place. Elsewhere in the NT, it is described even less than Hell, sometimes being called "eternal life".

Hellenic paganism had a Heaven: the Islands of the Blessed and the Elysian Fields; Virgil described the Elysian Fields as a part of the underworld with a very pleasant climate where people can do what they enjoy doing.

And Plato describes Socrates in his Apology as saying how great the next world will be, how he can get to meet notables like Homer and Hesiod and Orpheus and Musaeus. However, Socrates did not seem to fear eternal punishment.

Ancient Egyptians also had a Heaven, the Reed Fields, and Zoroastrianism also has a Heaven.

WishboneDawn · 10-23-2006, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

"Sheol" is found only in the Old Testament, which has no descriptions of what it's like in there.

I never equated 'Sheol' with hell. I thought it was a neutral term (in the snese that it's neither heaven nor hell) for after death?

Jedi Mind Trick · 10-23-2006, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

I never equated 'Sheol' with hell. I thought it was a neutral term (in the snese that it's neither heaven nor hell) for after death?

Sheol is “the pit” or “the grave” and is equivalent to hell as in “the hidden place.”
Hell is an old word (English?) that refers to a hidden place. It used to be said that the potato farmer would “hell” the potato when he buried it or young lovers would meet in a hell (hidden place).

What I don't think has a counterpart is the christian concept of "the lake of fire" that into which hell (the hidden place, the grave, the pit, sheol) will be thrown. The lake of fire is the eternal burning place of torment not hell.

10-21-2006, 06:09 AM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Hell is Hades and Tartarus, most direct link to Paganism I see many examples today of people wondering why Jews don't have anything about Heaven and Hell, which of course is because Heaven and Hell are pagan concepts. One thing we know is that the oldest texts of the New Testament in Greek use both the words Hades and Tartarus, and the description of these places by Christians matches the Greek descriptions of these places. I've read Josephus' commentary on Hades to the Greeks, whcih describes a his Jewish view of Hades (very similar to the ideas fo Christian heaven, hell, and purgatory), but this seems itself to have been already influenced by the pagans themselves. Does anyone have a good reference to ancient pagan descriptions of Hades and Tartarus? I'm looking for origional pagan texts, not modern summaries. Thanks

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10-21-2006, 11:24 AM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The Hell Words of the Bible shows us how the words for "hell" are translated in various Bible translations: "Sheol" is found only in the Old Testament, which has no descriptions of what it's like in there. The New Testament has "Gehenna", "Hades", and "Tartarus", with "Tartarus" occuring only once. Tartarus was the Hellenic-pagan Hell, and Hades was the more usual Hellenic-pagan destination, a place where one would have a drab and shadowy existence. Gehenna was originally a smoldering garbage dump near Jerusalem, and the Gehenna of the NT is closest to the common view of Hell as a place where you get burned alive forever and ever and ever. There are indirect references to such a place, like a "fiery furnace" and a "lake of fire" where the wicked will be sent to. One noncanonical NT-related work, the Apocalypse of Peter, goes into a lot of detail about the various punishments of Hell -- Dante's Inferno was not the first, and it certainly does not deserve the blame for the eternal people-fry view of Hell. And the New Testament was anticipated by Hellenistic-era Jews who believed in eternal punishment, like the authors of the Book of Enoch (more on such literature at Peter Kirby's Early Jewish Writings, including translations). But I do agree that the notion of eternal punishment likely has pagan origins -- and Zoroastrians also believed that there is a Hell that the wicked will be sent to. And the Epicureans considered their belief in non-existence after death a liberation from needless fears of eternal torment.

10-21-2006, 11:38 AM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Yes, Hellenistic Jews did describe Hades in a way similar to Christian Hell, but I think that this itself came from the "pagan" influence and was a part of the various mixing of Judaism and Hellenism. I think the writings on Hades and Tartarus by Plato, both quoted in my previous post and in his other works, clearly forshadow the Hellenistic Jewish, and Christian notions of the afterlife, which are quite different from early Judaism. The "lake of fire" and brimstone ideas clearly comes from the description of the Greek underworld as a place with lakes and rivers of fire and noxious sulfer, which in turn, they themselves admit comes from volcanos.

10-22-2006, 02:44 AM	#6
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Didn't the Hebrews eventually accept the concept of hell, however? If they did, then I hypothesize it was because they could no longer sell the "if you're a bad boy YHWH will punish you in your lifetime" argument. (Just a hypothesis, I have no evidence to support it).

10-22-2006, 03:46 PM	#8
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I wonder how far back one can trace "Gehenna" or "Ge Hinnom" (Hinnom Valley) for Hell. It is a common term in Rabbinical Judaism, but is apparently absent from Hellenistic Judaism or first-century Judaism (Philo, Josephus). However, the Gospels and early Xians like Justin Martyr had used it. The Arabic word for Hell, "Jahannam" is clearly derived from this (g -> j often in Arabic). Looking back further, we find the idea of punishment after death in some ancient Egyptian funerary texts, which were guidebooks for the next world. The Papyrus of Ani, a version of the "Book of the Dead" from Egypt's 19th Dynasty, around 1250 BCE, is the best-known of these. Many of them feature a judgment of the dead, in which you make a "Negative Confession", as it is usually called. Your heart will be put in a scale with a feather in the opposite pan. You must then assert that you have not committed any of a long list of sins, and if your heart is too weighed down by falsehood and sin, it will be eaten by the part-crocodile part-lion part-hippopotamus monster Ammit. However, early Mesopotamian afterlife beliefs resembled Hades and Sheol. It would be interesting to examine the converse, beliefs in "Heaven" or "Paradise". The only part of the New Testament that goes into detail about it is the Book of Revelation, whose New Jerusalem is presumably that place. Elsewhere in the NT, it is described even less than Hell, sometimes being called "eternal life". Hellenic paganism had a Heaven: the Islands of the Blessed and the Elysian Fields; Virgil described the Elysian Fields as a part of the underworld with a very pleasant climate where people can do what they enjoy doing. And Plato describes Socrates in his Apology as saying how great the next world will be, how he can get to meet notables like Homer and Hesiod and Orpheus and Musaeus. However, Socrates did not seem to fear eternal punishment. Ancient Egyptians also had a Heaven, the Reed Fields, and Zoroastrianism also has a Heaven.

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