Steven Carr

In
http://www.tektonics.org/crimeline.htm , Robert (No Link) Turkel makes an interesting point.

He writes about ''1722 Scotland Old unnamed Scottish woman is burned to death after being convicted of turning daughter into pony and riding her to witches'. by saying 'Worthless. How is it possible to check claims about anonymous persons?'

Aren't the 500 witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15 anonymous? Surely this 'testimony' is worthless. How is it possible to check claims about anonymous persons?'

Magdlyn

Of course it is worthless, and not just because of anonymity. Read The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. Price suggests those whom Christ appeared to in that passage--

--are lists from different traditions that were conflated in an attempt at harmonization.

Obviously Paul was ignorant of the appearance, so emphasized in the gospel narratives, of Jesus to Mary the Magdalene (and other women) at the gravesite.

Price further suggests, James, perhaps a leader of a rival cult, was demoted to being Jesus' brother. Jesus' other "siblings" are also listed, perhaps other traditions of rival cult leaders--

Just as John the Baptist, also a leader of a rival cult, was demoted to being Jesus' cousin and announcer.

Acts makes Jesus' mother and brothers present at the Pentecostal appearance. Yes, those folks whom Jesus disowned earlier in the story. The evangelist (or redactor) brings them into line with the orthodoxy.

In Paul, the leaders of the Jerusalem church are sarcastically referred to as Pillars. The tension between the various sects of the new cult is palpable, is it not?

French Prometheus

I think there's a major difference in kind between the two examples.
There were many women accused of withcraft who were burned at the stake. This is a historical fact for which there's a lot of evidence (e.g. court proceedings). The 1722 example may be an urban legend but it is credible. There were many such instances.
On the contrary, 1 Corinthians 15 describes the post-resurrection appearance of a "Messiah". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Any number of anonymous witnesses isn't enough. What's more, we don't have 500 anonymous testimonies about it. We only have one (Paul's) testimony which claims that there are 499 other witnesses.

Vinnie

Turkel would say that WHEN Paul wrote that many were still alive and it could be checked. For us today he might say there is no evidence Paul or others were challenged on this point. Evidence of this would be said to come from the fact that no one else or Paul at any other time seems to need to mention or dwell on this--directly or in passing.

This of course only preaches to the choir. He would probably also raise his "impossible faith" page as corroborating evidence as to why something remarkable must have occured and also limits on Pauline creativity to argue against Paul making this up whole cloth.

But yes, we cannot check Paul's claim anymore than we can check the 1722 Irish woman so the point has merit.

Vinnie

mrmoderate

By the OPs argument are we not intending to make all historical claims made by persons who we are unable to verify "worthless"?

Ironically, this reasoning has the same tone as Ecclesiastes.

Vinnie

Aren't the four gospels anonymous :notworthy :notworthy

Matthew_Green

I was talking with a friend of mine and I came up with an interesting possibility: I took Price's interpolation thesis and suggested my own modifications of it. If Price is right then we have a conflated list of different rival factions whom Jesus is said to have appeared to. But yet I disagree with Price that the appearance to the 500 was some apocryphal legend because it strikes me as being an odd anomaly given that no faction leader is named prior to the appearance. Cephas is named prior to the appearance to the Twelve (Was it really twelve, or eleven as recorded in Matthew and Luke or ten as recorded in John? Did Judas Iscariot rise from the dead to witness an appearance to Jesus or something?) and James is named prior to the appearance to the 'apostles'.

The appearance to 500 people is all by itself. If Price is right and 1st Corinthians is a pseudo-Pauline forgery (see http://www.skeptical-christian.net/a.../miracles.html) than it's possible that the person who conflated the lists took a independent third faction, headed by no other than Paul, and included it. Rather than mention an appearance to Paul and then to his group-the 500 witnesses- it's possible that the redactor chose to put Paul last and change from 3rd person to 1st person and put him as one born "out of time".

But the appearance to the 500 people is indeed an anonymous sighting. It has much evidentary value as the appearance of the Virgin Mary to a large group of people at Fatima or Medjugorje. In fact, I wonder why many Protestants dismiss these as "mass-hallucinations" or even demonically-caused visions and yet realize that the same could be said by people of other religions about the post-martem appearance of Jesus to 500 anonymous people.

If the 500 people are eyewitnesses, then every group of people whom the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared to are likewise eyewitnesses as well.

Matthew

Godless Wonder

Not necessarily. Perhaps all historical claims of magic.

Magdlyn

Hey someone else who has read TISSOM! Cool. I keep going on and on about it.

It makes sense to me.

Matthew_Green

I am still reading it. Price has become an favorite author of mine.

Matthew