Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 12-29-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before Then he subjoins: And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal." [Stromata 2.10]

Doesn't this mean that both Hermas and Clement accepted some version of the Marcionite baptism on behalf of the dead?

sotto voce · 12-29-2012, 02:50 PM

Shit calleth unto shit.

Chili · 12-29-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before Then he subjoins: And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal." [Stromata 2.10]

Doesn't this mean that both Hermas and Clement accepted some version of the Marcionite baptism on behalf of the dead?

A nice twister but I think it just means that the living water was also alive for late-comers who just wanted to shine with them, and were counted among them but used in number only to give rise to the tower.

This would be like saying that their 'little mansion' are best used as support inside the tower and not look like little shit houses scattered about.

Notice the difference here between water and faith, wherein faith is religion that begets sleepers and water is truth that brings life.

steve_bnk · 12-29-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before Then he subjoins: And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal." [Stromata 2.10]

Doesn't this mean that both Hermas and Clement accepted some version of the Marcionite baptism on behalf of the dead?

Mormons were found to be batizing dead Jews. it is like a production line. They have an immersion baptizimal pool and run through lists of dead Jews.

You can google it.

Toto · 12-30-2012, 12:07 AM

This Mormons do seem to count the Shepherd of Hermas among early Christian sources for posthumous baptism:

Baptism for the Dead in Early Christianity

Quote:

The Shepherd of Hermas teaches that the dead will receive baptism and hints at proxy work in a manner similar to the Pistis Sophia. In the apocalyptic visions, Hermas sees the apostles preaching to the spirits in the underworld. The text states, "They had to rise through water. . . in order to be made alive. In no other way could they enter the reign of God, unless they put off the deadliness of their [first] life. So too, those who had fallen asleep received the seal and [entered the reign of God]. Before bearing the name of [the Son of] God . . . a person is dead. But upon receiving the seal, the person puts aside deadliness and takes on life. So the seal is the water. Into the water they go down dead and come up alive. The seal was proclaimed to them, and they profited from it to enter into the reign of God." 134

In her commentary on this specific verse, Professor Carolyn Osiek declares that "the association of passing through water with entering the kingdom of God (v. 2) and receiving the seal is unmistakably a reference to baptism; . . . the absolute necessity of baptism is implicit here [the dead included]." ¹³⁵

Carolyn Osiek, Shepherd of Hermas: A Commentary (or via: amazon.co.uk)

stephan huller · 12-30-2012, 12:43 AM

Right but doesn't that mean that Clement was a (neo) Marcionite? Or that this practice wasnt just for Marcionites? Doesnt it also demonstrate the Marcionites weren't innovators?

sotto voce · 12-30-2012, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Right but doesn't that mean that Clement was a (neo) Marcionite? Or that this practice wasnt just for Marcionites? Doesnt it also demonstrate the Marcionites weren't innovators?

Before Marcion was even a twinkle in his father's eye, there were people saying that getting wet saved your soul, and before that, that circumcision saved your soul, stephan. Now if those ideas had been true, why was there need for the New Testament, or most of the Old? Why talk about egregious crapola?

Of course, the Jesuit Colleges would love us to think in terms of Holy Water, their replacement for the circumciser's knife. They'd have us believe that garlic will stop demons in their tracks, if they could.

And maybe they will, at this rate!

Sheshbazzar · 12-30-2012, 05:33 AM

When they baptize dead atheists does that magically POOF! them into being believing saints?

sotto voce · 12-30-2012, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

When they baptize dead atheists does that POOF ! them into being believing saints?

It's the Holy Water, to be sure.

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12-29-2012, 02:50 PM	#2
sotto voce Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: UK Posts: 3,057	Shit calleth unto shit.

12-30-2012, 12:43 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Right but doesn't that mean that Clement was a (neo) Marcionite? Or that this practice wasnt just for Marcionites? Doesnt it also demonstrate the Marcionites weren't innovators?

12-30-2012, 05:33 AM	#8
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	When they baptize dead atheists does that magically POOF! them into being believing saints?

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