FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-27-2008, 12:27 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NAS Atlanta
Posts: 2,104
Default Who is satan and what is his real name.

Okay, so I was listening to Beelz by Steven Lynch and it was making me wonder, what are the characteristics that make up satan and what is his real name? Lucifer, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, Satan, etc. Is he a snake, a goat hoofed demon, a beautiful fallen angel, the right hand of god who is not fallen but instead doing god's bidding of testing man's faith (my Mormon friends said that it was Luci's real job), a man in a white robe, etc.

Of the many things that I have to figure out what the "christian" I'm talking to believes in (since they all disagree about everything) before I can properly start debating with them is the character of Santa/Luci/Beelz (not a typo) before I can start debating about why the concept itself doesn't make sense. The same way I have to ask whether or not they believe the Earth is only ten thousand years old, it seriously changes the nature of the debate.

And even here, I've seen different characteristics given for this same individual. I've heard tell that the bible never directly references the same Santa/Luci/Beelz from one book to the next. In essence, I want to educate myself more about this concept of the biblical satan since I personally don't know much about him. Any help would be appreciated.
Gamer4Fire is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 12:43 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,962
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
I've heard tell that the bible never directly references the same Santa/Luci/Beelz from one book to the next.
That's not entirely true. Revelation 12, for example, talks about a dragon and describes him as "that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world " (v. 9), making an explicit connection to the serpent in Genesis, to Satan mentioned in Job, and if I'm not mistaken, to the devil in eg. Matthew 4. (You can check the Greek word on that one if you're interested.)

Quote:
In essence, I want to educate myself more about this concept of the biblical satan since I personally don't know much about him.
Unsurprisingly, there's no consistent Biblical description of Satan/the Devil/etc. The serpent in Genesis has no name and just seems to be a trickster-type being, and no motivations are given for his actions.
In Job, Satan (lit. 'adversary') appears as God's assistant, as a sort of "Devil's advocate" who tests people's faith. There's no mention here of Satan acting in opposition to God.
Sorry, got to go. I'll take a look at the NT later.
makerowner is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 12:45 PM   #3
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: nowhere
Posts: 15,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Okay, so I was listening to Beelz by Steven Lynch and it was making me wonder, what are the characteristics that make up satan and what is his real name? Lucifer,
Lucifer is an error. The word meant the planet Venus, the morning star (coming before the sun). It's used in the Latin of Isaiah 14:12, which is a passage about the king of Babylon, which christians confused with the devil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Beelzebub,
Probably a title of the devil, "lord of the flies", though earlier it was a name of Baal from Ekron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Mephistopheles,
Attached to the Faust tradition circa 1580.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Satan,
Originally a title for an angel, "the adversary". By the finally stages of the Hebrew bible it had become a name, no longer "the adversary", but just "Adversary" (1 Chr 21:1). We can see here the start of the emergence of the prime bad guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
etc. Is he a snake, a goat hoofed demon, a beautiful fallen angel, the right hand of god who is not fallen but instead doing god's bidding of testing man's faith (my Mormon friends said that it was Luci's real job), a man in a white robe, etc.
All depends on the sick imagination trying to scurrilously represent the figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Of the many things that I have to figure out what the "christian" I'm talking to believes in (since they all disagree about everything) before I can properly start debating with them is the character of Santa/Luci/Beelz (not a typo) before I can start debating about why the concept itself doesn't make sense. The same way I have to ask whether or not they believe the Earth is only ten thousand years old, it seriously changes the nature of the debate.

And even here, I've seen different characteristics given for this same individual. I've heard tell that the bible never directly references the same Santa/Luci/Beelz from one book to the next. In essence, I want to educate myself more about this concept of the biblical satan since I personally don't know much about him. Any help would be appreciated.
Get hold of Elaine Pagels' "The Origin of Satan (or via: amazon.co.uk)". It will help.


spin
spin is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 01:00 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
And even here, I've seen different characteristics given for this same individual. I've heard tell that the bible never directly references the same Santa/Luci/Beelz from one book to the next. In essence, I want to educate myself more about this concept of the biblical satan since I personally don't know much about him. Any help would be appreciated.
Quote:
Get hold of Elaine Pagels' "The Origin of Satan". It will help.
Better still, H.A. Kelly's Satan: A Biography (or via: amazon.co.uk), some of which can be read on Google books here.
and Jeffrey Burton Russel's Satan: The Early Christian Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 03:06 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NAS Atlanta
Posts: 2,104
Default

Are any of those books public domain, and if they are, where can I download them? I'm not exactly rich.
Gamer4Fire is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 03:27 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer4Fire View Post
Are any of those books public domain, and if they are, where can I download them? I'm not exactly rich.
No they are not in the public domain. Nor unfortunately is another one you must consult to get the answers you are looking for -- Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk), eds. Karel van der Toorn, Bob Becking Pieter Willem Van Der Horst.

But this one is available on the Logos Scholar's Disc, as is TDNT where you will find good entries on σατανᾶς and διάβολος.

Are you near a good library?

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 04:49 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NAS Atlanta
Posts: 2,104
Default

No I'm not near a library. Since I don't currently have the resources to pursue these books, could you give me the highlights and sweetpoints that would answer my above questions? And any other interesting information that would just be cool to know.
Gamer4Fire is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 05:02 PM   #8
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ucla, southern california
Posts: 140
Default the satan and pan

Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Originally a title for an angel, "the adversary". By the finally stages of the Hebrew bible it had become a name, no longer "the adversary", but just "Adversary" (1 Chr 21:1). We can see here the start of the emergence of the prime bad guy.
spin is correct. satan only appears very late in the jewish tradition. see another late book, job, where 'the satan' is not yet a proper name, but just the name of 'the adversary.'

as for the evolution of satan, do some reading on the god pan. hoofed feet, horns, and by the 4th c. ce, had become much larger than he actually was in the traditional greek pantheon. one can argue that pan became the prototype for later depictions of satan, especially since pan was linked to epilepsy/tremors/convulsions ('panic') and one story has jesus casting out a demon and curing an convulsing child at caesarea philippi, which is also called 'paneas', or 'the panion,' where pan was worshipped. the 'cave of pan' is still there today.
XKV8R is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 05:24 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 3,058
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XKV8R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin View Post
Originally a title for an angel, "the adversary". By the finally stages of the Hebrew bible it had become a name, no longer "the adversary", but just "Adversary" (1 Chr 21:1). We can see here the start of the emergence of the prime bad guy.
spin is correct. satan only appears very late in the jewish tradition. see another late book, job, where 'the satan' is not yet a proper name, but just the name of 'the adversary.'
Some data from TDNT showing that "Satan" is not always used with reference to an angel/ heavenly being.

Quote:
B. The OT View of Satan.
Whether שָׂטָן belongs to the nouns in וֹן, 13 or whether it represents a simple construction קָטָל, is a debated issue, though even in the latter case it is based on the verb שָׂטַן. In the first instance the term denotes a quality rather than a function, and the basic meaning is “enemy” or “adversary.”
1. For the most part OT usage does not follow this general line of meaning, though it may be seen, e.g., in 1 S. 29:4 and Ps. 71:13 (cf. also Gn. 26:21). So far as we can see, the word has a special place in the judicial life of Israel. The sa�*an is the enemy in a specific sense, i.e., the accuser at law. His place is on the right hand of the accused (Zech. 3:1), and his intervention is described in the terms עָמַד עַל (Zech. 3:1; 1 Ch. 21:1). In the request of one who is prosecuted that the situation might be reversed and that “an adversary should stand at his right hand” (עָמַד עַל, Ps. 109:6; cf. v. 20, 29), all these elements may be discerned. שִׂטְ�*ָה denotes accusation in Ezr. 4:6. Another judicial term for this legal functionary seems to have been מַזְכִּיר עָוֹן, which is used figuratively in Ez. 21:28f.; 29:16. Similarly the woman of Zarephath sees in Elijah an accuser who has come to call her sin to remembrance (1 K. 17:18). The cup-bearer in the story of Joseph appears before Pharaoh as his own accuser in Gn. 41:9. When Ezekiel calls Nebuchadnezzar or the Egyptians מַזְכִּיר עָוֹן, he does so on the basis of an interesting theology of history. Yahweh has a special function for the enemies of Israel. They are the accusers of Israel and are thus related to the guilt of God’s people. This important conception entitles us to see in the satans raised up against Solomon14—the Edomite Hadad and the Aramean Rezon—not merely enemies according to the general sense of the term, but adversaries in the specific legal sense. According to the Deuteronomic view of the writer, Solomon has sinned, and it is in relation to his sin that these satans are raised up during his reign. A concrete illustration is thus given of the proposition which underlies the Deuteronomic theology of history, namely, that the history of the people of God is its judgment.
The same is true of διάβολος.
Quote:


1. The subst. διαβολή and διάβολος are most commonly used in the sense of complaint (Thuc., I, 131, 2: ὁ δὲ βουλόμενος ὡς ἥκιστα ὕποπτος εἶναι καὶ πιστεύων χρήμασι διαλύσειν τὴν διαβολήν …) and esp. calumniation: Thuc., VIII, 91, 3: ἦν δ�* τι καὶ τοιοῦτον ἀπὸ τῶν τὴν κατηγορίαν ἐχόντων, καὶ οὐ πάνυ διαβολὴ μόνον τοῦ λόγου, cf. expressions like ἐπὶ διαβολῇ εἰπεῖν in Hdt., III, 66 or διαβολᾶς ἐνδ�*κεσθαι in Hdt., III, 80. But there are also instances of the various meanings which derive from διαβάλλειν “to separate,” e.g., Plut. Cons. ad Apoll., 15 (II, 110a): ἡ πρὸς θάνατον διαβολή; “to see oneself in a mirror as one is,” οὐ μικρόν ἐστιν εἰς διαβολὴν τοῦ πάθους Plut. De Cohibenda Ira, 6 (II, 456b). For διάβολος “calumniator,” cf. Aristoph. Eq., 44 f.: ἐπρίατο δοῦλον, βυρσοδ�*ψην �*αφλαγόνα, πανουργότατον καὶ διαβολώτατόν τινα. In Aristot. Topica, IV, 5, p. 126a, 31 f. we have σοφιστὴν ἢ διάβολον ἢ κλ�*πτην, and in Plut. Quaest. Conv., VIII, 7, 2 (II, 727d), διάβολος is used as a par. of ψίθυρος. Yet διάβολος is not restricted to this sense. This is shown by its connexion with τυραννικός (Athen., 11, 118) and Athen., 11, 119: Εὐφραῖος … παρὰ �*ερδίκκᾳ … διατρίβων … οὐχ ἧττον αὐτοῦ ἐβασίλευε, φαῦλος ὢν καὶ διάβολος, ὃς ὅτω ψυχρῶς συν�*ταξε τὴν ἑταιρίαν τοῦ βασιλ�*ως, ὥστε οὐκ ἐξῆν τοῦ συσσιτίου μετασχεῖν, εἰ μή τις ἐπίσταιτο τὸ γεωμετρεῖν ἢ τὸ φιλοσοφεῖν (almost in the sense of “unfriendly”). διάβολος means “talebearer” in Corp. Herm., XIII, 13b: (οὐχ) ὑπεμνηματισάμην, ἵνα μὴ ὦμεν διάβολοι τοῦ παντὸς εἰς τοὺς πολλούς, and cf. XIII, 22b.

2. Joseph. does not use either διάβολος or other names for Satan.4 He uses διαβάλλειν and διαβολή in the sense of “calumniation,”5 though also “accusation.”6

3. The LXX used διαβολή mostly in the sense of “calumniation,”7 though it could denote “enmity” in Sir. 28:9.8 In Nu. 22:32 (the angel to Balaam): ἐξῆλθον εἰς διαβολήν σου, “in order to resist thee.” Διαβάλλειν is once used for “to calumniate,”9 and once for “to accuse.”10 The compos. ἐνδιαβάλλειν means “to attack.”11 In י 108:6 διάβολος is the “accuser”: διάβολος στήτω ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ. In Est. 7:4; 8:1, Haman is called διάβολος in the sense of “opponent” or “enemy” (Mas. צֹרֵר צָר). In 1 Macc. 1:36 the acra is called a διάβολος (par. παγίς and ἔνεδρον) in the sense of “obstacle.”

The LXX also used διάβολος for שָׂטָן “devil,” in the sense of “the one who separates,” “the enemy,” “the calumniator,” “the seducer.”12 Since this is an innovation in the LXX, we can only deduce the meaning from the rendering and from the context. The latter seldom suggests “calumniator,” but rather “accuser” or “adversary.” This is so in 1 Ch. 21:1 and Job 1 and 2, unless we prefer “seducer.” Even in Zech. 3:1 ff., where he is in fact the accuser, the verb שׂטן is rendered ἀντικεῖσθαι: καὶ ὁ διάβολος ἱστήκει ἐκ δεξιῶν αὐτοῦ τοῦ ἀντικεῖσθαι αὐτῷ == וְהַשָּׂטָן עֹמֵד עַל־יְמִי�*וֹ לְשִׂטְ�*וֹ. This seems to force us to the conclusion that “accuser” is not the primary meaning. Since the rendering “seducer” does not fit all the contexts, “adversary” is the required translation. The work of the adversary implies always an attempt on the part of the διάβολος to separate God and man. It is an open question whether the verb διαβάλλειν influenced the usage.

Jeffrey
Jeffrey Gibson is offline  
Old 04-27-2008, 05:32 PM   #10
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ucla, southern california
Posts: 140
Default

i meant about the adversary part. some sort of heavenly being is assumed in the job (and maybe in the 1chron) passages, but 'satan' is not exclusively used to refer to heavenly beings.
XKV8R is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:54 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.