Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jaguar Prince · 03-15-2005, 02:49 AM

Then just have a careful look at Matthew 27:52-53:

52
And the graves were opened
And may bodies of the saints which slept arose
53
And coming out of the graves after his resurrection
Went into the holy city
And appeared unto many...

The context: Jesus has just given up the spirit. An earthquake takes places, rocks are split, the Temple veil is rent, graves burst open, the saints (hagioi) of olden time wake up amidst whirling swarms of scared bats, all Hollywood signs that Jesus is descending in Hades for an Orpheus-like liberation mission, but...

But the hagioi don't come out of their graves until after the resurrection of Jesus, which means that they must have remained immobile in their dusty coffins for at least two entire days!

One presumes that they were busy training their legs to kick the unbelieving disciples in their @...s or mending their shrouds "made in Cathay" in order not to create a naturist scandal in prudish Jerusalem.

Or is it rather the case that they were trying to avoid a major protocol gaffe? Wouldn't it have been incredibly indecent and unedifying if Jewish saints, you know, the fellows from the Stone Age covenant, had come out of their graves before the triumphant founder of brand-new Christianity?

This is certainly what the second century scribe who copied the Gospel of Matthew thought. Isn't it as easy as saying 'I believe in Jesus' to add three innocent words: meta ten egersin autou: after the rising of him? God must have been pleased with his zealous pen-holding son... :thumbs:

If on the other hand you scrap "after his resurrection", the story flows quite naturally and is almost credible:

And the graves were opened
And may bodies of the saints which slept arose
And coming out of the graves went into the holy city
And appeared unto many...

Jag :devil3:

Vorkosigan · 03-15-2005, 04:20 AM

welll...it's just the sort of dumb mistake a clod like Matthew might make.

andrewcriddle · 03-15-2005, 07:22 AM

The Diatessaron (a 2nd century harmony of the four Gospels) probably omitted 'after his resurrection'
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/2.ashx

Quote:

There is actual textual evidence that the text in Matthew has been altered. One of its earliest witnesses was the Diatesseron, a gospel harmony produced by Tatian at the end of the 2nd century. This harmony was in turn based on the one produced by Justin Martyr several decades earlier. The Pepysian Harmony and the Ephrem Commentary both attest the Diatessaron reading as follows: And with that, the veil that hung in the temple before the high altar burst in two pieces, the earth quaked, and the stones burst, and the dead men arose out of their graves. And entering the holy city, they appeared to many. And the centurion and those with him, who stood facing Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, and said with awe, "Truly this was the Son of God!" Here the gloss does not appear and the appearance of the risen dead in Jerusalem occurs at the same time as Jesus' death and was witnessed by the centurion.

(I would normally be reluctant to use the above site as a reliable witness but I think I've come across the same claim in academic texts.)

The Palestinian Syriac also omits 'after his resurrection' however the Old Syriac contains the clause.

Andrew Criddle

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-15-2005, 02:50 PM

I agree that it's a damn weird time for that phrase and Jag is right that it sure looks like an interpolation. Matthew is all about big signs and earthquakes and special effects (he also produces an earthquake and two angels to move the stone from the tomb). Matt throws in the kitchen sink for the crucifixion and the flow of the story definitely makes it seem like the zombie assault on Jerusalem was intended to be part of the death scene. Vork is also right that Matthew was not our brightest evangelist. Along with all the ham-handed SFX and overuse of devices like angels he's also responsible for arguably the single dumbest image in the Bible (Jesus riding two different animals simultaneously into Jerusalem) because his reading comprehension seems not to have been in the upper percentiles.

I would agree with Jaguar Prince (and Vork) that the most economical explanation is that Matthew made a dumb mistake and someone had to correct it. It's just too bad they couldn't get rid of that extra donkey while they were at it.

Jaguar Prince · 03-15-2005, 08:44 PM

I don't think Matthew made any dumb mistakes, at least here. IMHO, it was an obscure scribe who added "meta ten egersin autou" for obvious etiquette reasons.

Although the whole passage is ridden with cheap special effects a la Ten Commandments, it is still interesting in that it shows that for Matthew Jesus was never completely dead, as many Christians think. On his giving up the spirit, the son of Man descended in Hades (not the place with eternal fire apparently) to liberate the just men of the past. This confirms what controversial Ephesians 4,9 teaches: Jesus first descended into the lower parts of the earth in the process of his final exaltation.

The ex-prisoners of avaricious Hades in turn came out of their graves to announce the imminent resurrection of their gracious Liberator, which means that what we have in this colorful incident is a beautiful new variation of the precursor theme: the Messiah had been proclaimed by John, who had baptized him and had thereby been instrumental in his awakening to his holy mission. But John had had doubts about Jesus: was the meek healer and exorcist really the expected king of the Jews? Now new witnesses, the saints of the old covenant, for whom there could evidently be no doubts about the divine character of the rabbi from Galilea, were bearing witness to the risen Messiah.

This would be an ingenious theological construction but for one detail:

It is just a pity they couldn't find the address of Peter and the others :Cheeky: and remind them of Jesus' prophecies concerning himself. But they-and Matthew-had a good excuse: unlike God the Son, they were not all-knowing and Jesus' terrified and incredulous companions were staying in hiding. In fact we have every reason to believe that they as personae non gratae had already fled the holy city for safe Galilea and were praying God Almighty that He may let them start their fishing business again (see John 21)...

It is also worth noting that the word which is translated as "rising" or "resurrection" (the more technical term in our own modern, theologically more sophisticated languages) could also mean "awakening" in Greek: meta ten egersin autou=after his awakening. Christians could shout on Easter morning (and they do that in Greece and Russia but with the other, more conventional meaning): Christos has awakened! Christos has awakened!

This sounds terribly Buddhist, doesn't it? No wonder they (the mainstream churches, I mean) opted for the more materialistic and judaizing interpretation: Christ has risen, which inevitably evokes the reassuring picture of a (perforated) body and (hairy) legs. Thank God, the danger of Gnostic contamination has been averted...

Jag :devil3:

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-15-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaguar Prince

I don't think Matthew made any dumb mistakes, at least here. IMHO, it was an obscure scribe who added "meta ten egersin autou" for obvious etiquette reasons.

I think you misunderstood me. Matthew's "dumb mistake" was in having the somata twn agiwn being raised up before Jesus was. The copyist "corrected" the mistake.

Jaguar Prince · 03-15-2005, 10:10 PM

I don't think it's absurd (in the context of Matthew) or a mistake: on entering Hades Jesus delivered the just men of the past and they came out to bear witness. As I said above, this is a variation on the precursor theme. In the Bible, things never fall out of the blue: they are always announced in advance.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-15-2005, 10:41 PM

Matthew says nothing about a descent into Hades (more accurately Sheol) and in Jewish eschatology, everyone was going to be raised from Sheol anyway for final judgement.

Jaguar Prince · 03-15-2005, 11:39 PM

IMHO, the earthquake and all the wonders that follow point to a descent into hades by Jesus. All great heroes of Antiquity went to Hades (Orpheus, Aeneas). Jesus could not have missed that. The earliest symbols of Christanity refer to that event. The liberation of the just is theologically important because it indicates that the world has now entered the final days.

03-15-2005, 02:49 AM	#1
Jaguar Prince Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salvador, Brazil Posts: 188	Looking for an obvious and absurd NT interpolation? Then just have a careful look at Matthew 27:52-53: 52 And the graves were opened And may bodies of the saints which slept arose 53 And coming out of the graves after his resurrection Went into the holy city And appeared unto many... The context: Jesus has just given up the spirit. An earthquake takes places, rocks are split, the Temple veil is rent, graves burst open, the saints (hagioi) of olden time wake up amidst whirling swarms of scared bats, all Hollywood signs that Jesus is descending in Hades for an Orpheus-like liberation mission, but... But the hagioi don't come out of their graves until after the resurrection of Jesus, which means that they must have remained immobile in their dusty coffins for at least two entire days! One presumes that they were busy training their legs to kick the unbelieving disciples in their @...s or mending their shrouds "made in Cathay" in order not to create a naturist scandal in prudish Jerusalem. Or is it rather the case that they were trying to avoid a major protocol gaffe? Wouldn't it have been incredibly indecent and unedifying if Jewish saints, you know, the fellows from the Stone Age covenant, had come out of their graves before the triumphant founder of brand-new Christianity? This is certainly what the second century scribe who copied the Gospel of Matthew thought. Isn't it as easy as saying 'I believe in Jesus' to add three innocent words: meta ten egersin autou: after the rising of him? God must have been pleased with his zealous pen-holding son... :thumbs: If on the other hand you scrap "after his resurrection", the story flows quite naturally and is almost credible: And the graves were opened And may bodies of the saints which slept arose And coming out of the graves went into the holy city And appeared unto many... Jag :devil3:

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03-15-2005, 04:20 AM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	welll...it's just the sort of dumb mistake a clod like Matthew might make.

03-15-2005, 02:50 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I agree that it's a damn weird time for that phrase and Jag is right that it sure looks like an interpolation. Matthew is all about big signs and earthquakes and special effects (he also produces an earthquake and two angels to move the stone from the tomb). Matt throws in the kitchen sink for the crucifixion and the flow of the story definitely makes it seem like the zombie assault on Jerusalem was intended to be part of the death scene. Vork is also right that Matthew was not our brightest evangelist. Along with all the ham-handed SFX and overuse of devices like angels he's also responsible for arguably the single dumbest image in the Bible (Jesus riding two different animals simultaneously into Jerusalem) because his reading comprehension seems not to have been in the upper percentiles. I would agree with Jaguar Prince (and Vork) that the most economical explanation is that Matthew made a dumb mistake and someone had to correct it. It's just too bad they couldn't get rid of that extra donkey while they were at it.

03-15-2005, 08:44 PM	#5
Jaguar Prince Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salvador, Brazil Posts: 188	I don't think Matthew made any dumb mistakes, at least here. IMHO, it was an obscure scribe who added "meta ten egersin autou" for obvious etiquette reasons. Although the whole passage is ridden with cheap special effects a la Ten Commandments, it is still interesting in that it shows that for Matthew Jesus was never completely dead, as many Christians think. On his giving up the spirit, the son of Man descended in Hades (not the place with eternal fire apparently) to liberate the just men of the past. This confirms what controversial Ephesians 4,9 teaches: Jesus first descended into the lower parts of the earth in the process of his final exaltation. The ex-prisoners of avaricious Hades in turn came out of their graves to announce the imminent resurrection of their gracious Liberator, which means that what we have in this colorful incident is a beautiful new variation of the precursor theme: the Messiah had been proclaimed by John, who had baptized him and had thereby been instrumental in his awakening to his holy mission. But John had had doubts about Jesus: was the meek healer and exorcist really the expected king of the Jews? Now new witnesses, the saints of the old covenant, for whom there could evidently be no doubts about the divine character of the rabbi from Galilea, were bearing witness to the risen Messiah. This would be an ingenious theological construction but for one detail: It is just a pity they couldn't find the address of Peter and the others :Cheeky: and remind them of Jesus' prophecies concerning himself. But they-and Matthew-had a good excuse: unlike God the Son, they were not all-knowing and Jesus' terrified and incredulous companions were staying in hiding. In fact we have every reason to believe that they as personae non gratae had already fled the holy city for safe Galilea and were praying God Almighty that He may let them start their fishing business again (see John 21)... It is also worth noting that the word which is translated as "rising" or "resurrection" (the more technical term in our own modern, theologically more sophisticated languages) could also mean "awakening" in Greek: meta ten egersin autou=after his awakening. Christians could shout on Easter morning (and they do that in Greece and Russia but with the other, more conventional meaning): Christos has awakened! Christos has awakened! This sounds terribly Buddhist, doesn't it? No wonder they (the mainstream churches, I mean) opted for the more materialistic and judaizing interpretation: Christ has risen, which inevitably evokes the reassuring picture of a (perforated) body and (hairy) legs. Thank God, the danger of Gnostic contamination has been averted... Jag :devil3:

03-15-2005, 10:10 PM	#7
Jaguar Prince Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salvador, Brazil Posts: 188	I don't think it's absurd (in the context of Matthew) or a mistake: on entering Hades Jesus delivered the just men of the past and they came out to bear witness. As I said above, this is a variation on the precursor theme. In the Bible, things never fall out of the blue: they are always announced in advance.

03-15-2005, 10:41 PM	#8
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Matthew says nothing about a descent into Hades (more accurately Sheol) and in Jewish eschatology, everyone was going to be raised from Sheol anyway for final judgement.

03-15-2005, 11:39 PM	#9
Jaguar Prince Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salvador, Brazil Posts: 188	IMHO, the earthquake and all the wonders that follow point to a descent into hades by Jesus. All great heroes of Antiquity went to Hades (Orpheus, Aeneas). Jesus could not have missed that. The earliest symbols of Christanity refer to that event. The liberation of the just is theologically important because it indicates that the world has now entered the final days.

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