Chili

He fulfilled the law and without a law there can be no sin.

Boomeister

That's "Christian-talk." I've heard that before and it makes absolutely no sense. Does that mean we have no law now, and we don't sin now (since his resurrection)?
How does one "fulfill" the law? I thought we were "born" into sin, so what does that have to do with "law." There were no 10 commandments during Adam and Eve, so I guess they didn't sin, as well?
Do we get to live in chaos and anarchy now, since there is no law?
Please explain this.

Boomeister

Chili

That's what? How can you sin when there is no law to convict you?

You must remember here that the laws were given to Moses to convict man of sin and thus not to stop the action that would be called sin.

Exactly, no law means no sin. Nobody ever suggested that Jesus came to end or abolish the law because it is still here and must remain intact for those who desire to part of the flock and contribute to the well being of our civilization.

Adam and Eve never sinned but man sinned when he ate from the tree of knowledge. This was called original sin and made us, as follwers from Adam, human beings born into sin. To remove this original stain of sin the laws were given to Moses so we might be set free from Original sin and retrieve our prior divine nature. This makes sin like a fishing tool to catch the 'big one' and no more than a social construct for that purpose.

Chaos? That will depend on your stream of consciuousness. As outsider you are likely to be an outcast as freeloader and might even become a temple tramp or a 'free lunch' for believers who, if nothing else, have the right claim your contributions into their eminent domain.

Boomeister

huh?

Boomeister

You mentioned Jesus came to fulfill the law, but you didn't explain what that means. And more important, how does this relate to the OP?

Boomeister

Chili

Because the law was given for 'your' (impersonal) benefit so it will convict you of sin and that is how you will/can fulfill the law.

Let's remember here that the law was given to Moses for the conviction of sin and this same law is fulfilled if it convicts a (any) sinner. Notice that I write "it" instead of the preacher.

So when Jesus fulfilled the law he, as son of Joseph, was the the fulfillment of the law that convicted Joseph-- wherefore he went to Bethlehem to give an account of himself that caused him to become the reborn Joseph now called Jesus.

So therefore, Jesus was set free from the law and could not sin.

Jon Promnitz

Chili said:You touch on a few points that bother me in regards to Christianity, and I would like to briefly cover them. I'll break up your quote and make a few comments.

First off, Adam was a "man", wasn't he? Supposedly, both Adam and Eve 'sinned' when they ate from the tree. I think your trying to use the term MAN in a general sense purposely to make it look as if we all committed and are all guilty of this sin. I detest the deity who would unjustly punish me for Adam's mistake. I also detest you trying to pin this mistake on MAN. Millions of MEN didn't sin in the garden, just one.

So all of us, without any free choice, are born as descendants of this Adam character and have to pay his debts. Many OT verses make the claim that sons will not be punished for the sins of the fathers. Born into sin? Reggie has some great arguments at the infidelguy.com that work this back to God's choice to create us all anyway. One, why did he place a forbidden tempation in the garden? God's earlier experiment with the angels failed (even without a tree), but he decides to make man, place two forbidden trees in a garden, and let an evil force known as Satan roam free. They didn't have a damn chance! Next, why did he grant his greatest enemy direct access to poor Eve. I recall NO verse were God has the dignity to warn the two of his little mishap with an angel named Lucifer? Eve was caught off guard. Three, wasn't the talking snake a lttle unusual? Perhaps talking animals was normal back then? Four, forcefully being born into sin is flat-out ridiculous. Dennis McKinsey has a quote that goes something like this: 'A God who make imperfect beings, and then punishes then for their imperfections, is by definition, IMPERFECT.'

If these laws set us free from this made up doctrine of "Original Sin", why did Jesus waste his time on earth? You say: "retrieve our prior divine nature"? Hold on! I thought we were born into sin. Are we really trying to cover our butts, or are we actually covering for Adams muk-up? REMOVE your Adam and you REMOVE this "Original Sin". I am innocent of his crimes. The entire race of mankind doesn't fall because Adam made a mistake. No just or divine being would punish us all on his account. In conclusion, there is NO stain of sin. It's nothing but fabricated jargon.

HUH!? This sounds like something a confused paster would feed to his gullible followers during the Sunday service.

Attempting to start in Genesis and defend the Bible is a lost cause. Spend your time doing some more resourceful. The god in Genesis failed his first Free-Will experiment with the angels. How many sins can an angel commit? He then has the ignorance to create creatures called humans, place them in an even more hostile environment, plant two forbidden trees, allow his greatest enemy to interact with them, and if that wasn't enough, he has the audacity to punish these humans for their mistakes. What a setup! And guess what, God's "free will" escapade was unsuccessful yet again. Adam and Eve were going to fail and God knew it. An elementary student could have figured out that their odds of success were close to zero. Even if God couldn't see the future he should be able to figure that out. Now countless good people get to pay with their souls for eternity. Maybe this God should give its job to someone or something more qualified.

Chili

Much appreciated and I will respond. Before you start reading you should pretend that you do not know anything because you are quite wrong with all your comments. In other words, you are troubled for nothing except a whole lot of misconceptions. Having said this I will agree that Christianity is often wrong but that should not trouble you. No Adam was not a man. Man was man as created in the image of God and this is without an earthly identity or it would not be the image of God. Is that fair? So here we have the essence of existence but no corporeal body just yet. Notice that he created them, plural, male and female in this essence of existence to say that they have the potential to become either male or female.

In Gen 2 Lord God (not God), formed this man-in-the-image-of-God out of dust into a living man. Then he takes woman from man to make man masculine and woman effeminate and therefore neither are fully God for she is the womb of man and he is the identity of woman. Together (since each one of us still is created in the same way), they are one in this divine marriage of true minds . . . wherefore it can be said that marriages are arranged in heaven and that also means that a divine union is possible for you to reclaim heaven on earth because the essence always precedes the existence to make human love possible. In this sense is a human love affair the foreshadow of divine love affair wherein Mary is the bride of the Lamb . . . and you (impersonal) are the son of man in the same image you were created and conceived.

In Gen. 3 the fall of man occurred. The tree of knowledge represents our conscious mind and it is upon this mind that man conjectured a second identity and this identity is called Adam. Notice that shame was first introduced here and for us to have shame there must be two of us, one is our image of God identity and the second one is our ego. Hence the fig leave and a beard to hide our face.Original sin was committed by each one of us during the first trimester of pregnancy when we first became consciously aware. This sin is actually good because it makes us rational beings . . . which is good and never not good except when we 'fall' in love. Would you agree with this?

So each one of us sinned in the garden. The good thing about this is that the garden exist in our own mind and both trees are there as well. You know the Tree of Knowledge (TOK) and the TOL is the other side of you mind wherein you (always impersonal) are non-rational (note, not irrational). This would be your subconscious mind wherein you are woman to make you conscious mind your human side (your subconscious mind your woman side) and when these two minds become one, once again, you will be man in the fullness of the God after whom you were created. Here again, just as there is fulfillment in human love there is greater fulfillment in divine love when you left and right brain meet and become fully one. None of the above applies in my perspective. Eve the is earthliness of Adam who himself must be prodded to move or think or do anything on his own. The serpent is Eve and she is the perfect match for him because she must teach him to walk upright with honor and integrity. Do do see that concept? Ever wondered why some guys have 'balls' and others don't. Thank the serpent for that.Now you are into protestant theology and I do not have to answer for that. In Catholicism man is basically good and therefore redeemable.

You are innocent as unbeliever. Nobody tells you to believe anything unless you want to. However, this does not mean that you are not affected by what we call Original Sin and if we have a package available for you to solve this 'great riddle of life' you are still never forced to buy into it. The choice is yours but you must also allow those who choose to go along with it the right to do so.You probably spend more time against God then I ever did for God (probably a lot more money too).

Chili

Is that denomination # 20,001?

Boomeister

Define "fulfillment of the law", because your post is confusing.

Boomeister