TedM

Paul's writings IMO are about the meaning of Jesus' resurrection to the salvation of all mankind through faith instead of following Jewish Law. Paul supports his view with OT scriptures, including some regarding the expected Messiah.

Let's assume Jesus was a preacher who did not perform miracles, and who preached of the coming kingdom of God but not of his own resurrection, and that he was arrested and crucified during Passover during Paul's lifetime. Let's further assume Jesus did not preach about salvation to the Gentiles.

Given this backdrop:
1. What references to this minimal historical Jesus should we expect Paul to have made?
2. What references in Paul's presumed writings are contrary to this kind of Jesus (make sure they refer to him prior to the resurrecton)?

Please don't quote me from the gospels that show a different Jesus. I'm asking what we should expect from Paul if Jesus really did exist as a human being, but was not the Jesus as represented in the Gospels.

ted

Toto

What role would you assign this minimal Jesus in the formation of Christianity? Someone who unwittingly inspired Paul to preach something that minimal Jesus never thought of? If so, in what sense is minimal Jesus to be identified with the historical Jesus that others are searching for? Could minimal Jesus have been some crazy man like Josephus' Jesus son of Ananaias who cried "Woe to Jerusalem?"

If minimal Jesus was a more substantial figure, wouldn't you expect Paul to quote some actual words of the historic Jesus on the subject of the coming kingdom of god?

Or perhaps mention his father (Jesus son of xxx) to distinguish him from all the other men named Jesus?

aa5874

But, does not the notion of a "minimal HJ" give creedence to the idea the Jesus was "substantially" a myth?

What use is a minimal "HJ"?

Once it is found that the Jesus story as presented by the authors of the NT and the Church writers was essentially non-history then "minimal HJ" has no real significance and cannot be retrieved.

TedM

Yes perhaps, as stated in the OP. I would assume that he --either by virtue of something he said or did or that happened to him--inspired the creation of early Christianity that in turn inspired Paul to have the views he had. Personally I would assume it had to do with being crucified during Passover.

I view this minimal Jesus to be identified as a "historical Jesus" although others may disagree for some reason. For now, lets not worry about this issue as it becomes an endless game of definitions.

yes, as long as he also fulfilled the assumptions in the OP.

I'm asking what YOU would expect. If you would expect that, please state where in his epistles and why.

Would you expect that after the answer I gave to your first question?

Toto

It sounds to me like you have constructed a scenario where there was a person you can identify as "historical Jesus" who would not have left a trace in history, even in the preaching of those who followed him. This is an interesting exercise, but is there any basis for it at all? It looks like an attempt to shift the burden of proof to skeptics.

If this historic Jesus somehow inspired Paul (without actually meeting him) why assume that hJ was crucified, much less crucified during Passover? Perhaps hJ just winked at someone, a second person misinterpreted that wink, and told Paul something and .... ??? There is no limit to the imaginative possibilities.

The game of definitions is what it's about. If you can pick a random guy in Jerusalem and call him historical Jesus, of course historical Jesus existed. But this doesn't tell us anything about Christian origins.

I would expect some mention somewhere. For example, Doherty's point 16: 1 Corinthians 10:11. If historical minimal Jesus preached something about the coming kingdom of god, and this inspired Paul, why not make some reference to it?

. . . For upon us the fulfilment of the ages has come.

Yes. Unless you think that the actual historical Jesus was so irrelevant that he had become a spiritual legend in Paul's mind.

TedM

It is only an attempt to see whether Paul's writings are consistent with my version of a historical Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less. My view is not a fringe view. In fact it may be the most common view in the world. It is neither the non-mythicism nor the Christian view. Rather, the non-Christian who believes Jesus must have existed and been some kind of teacher, and was crucified, and that Christianity was inspired in some way from all of that. So yes, I think there is a strong basis for this 'exercise', since Paul's writings were the earliest in Christianity.

GakuseiDon

Hi TedM, good to see you back!

Two items:

(1)

1. I think we would expect Paul to have some references to Jesus' teachings, or at least his roll as a teacher. Even if Jesus didn't preach salvation to the Gentiles, there must have been something that Jesus would have said that Paul could have used, somewhere.
2. Paul doesn't appear to frame Jesus as a preacher. The couple of references to teachings may have been given after Jesus was resurrected.

(2)

1. I think we would expect specific details about Jesus' life. Paul appears to suggest that Jesus led a good life, obedient to God "even to death", and this warrants God to appoint Jesus "Son of God" by the resurrection. But unless Jesus just lived in a cave all his life, what did he actually DO?
2. Nothing really in Paul that contradicts the above, other than a lack of details. I agree that Paul's focus is on the Gentiles and on Gentile salvation, but was there nothing that Jesus did as part of his "obedient life" that Paul couldn't have used as an example?

Certainly those are things that we would expect.

Toto

But this view of Jesus is based on, as far as I can see, the proposition that the existence of Christianity is evidence for a founder. It is really just accepting the conventional wisdom about Christian origins.

Once you accept the possibility that the gospels are not historical, there is no particular reason to think that the founder or inspirer of Christianity was a teacher who was crucified under Pilate - a teacher who was so charismatic that he was deified after his death, but so insignificant that no one outside his small circle of followers noticed him. He was so powerful that the authorities had to kill him, but so weak that his followers were ignored. And in addition, his followers forgot everything he actually said or did and subsituted quotes from the Hebrew scriptures.

This is just an exercise in piling ad hoc explanations on top of each other for the lack of evidence.

aa5874

It has NOT been proven or demonstrated that "Paul's" writings were the earliest.

There is NO tradition from the Church that the character called "Paul" wrote BEFORE the Jesus story was well-known. And there is no external non-apologetic corroborative source for the Pauline writings.

Now, in the Jesus stories themselves not even the supposed disciples of Jesus were INSPIRED by the teachings of Jesus, they hardly understood them.

And the disciples were NOT inspired by his betrayal, arrest, and crucifixion.

Peter DENIED ever knowing or associated with Jesus and some of the others ran away.

What did INSPIRE the disciples after Jesus was crucified?

The apostles were in a house with the door shut tight waiting for some INSPIRATION. The UNINSPIRED women at the tomb ran away trembling with fear when the body of Jesus could NOT be located.

Please explain what caused the disciples to become INSPIRED?

The INSPIRATION for the disciples was a NON-event.

By the way, it is not that Jesus of the NT must have existed, it is that the story MUST have been believed to be true just as christians and non-christians believe their Jesus must have existed without any real evidence.

Don't you believe Jesus did exist without any real external non-apologetic source?

Well, people of antiquity are no different. They simply believed the fantastic myths too, without any evidence.

TedM

aa,I just can't communicate with you as desired, so as before will have to let others respond to you.