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Old 01-18-2008, 05:09 PM   #1
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Default Are moderate muslims bad muslims?

I've been hearing the claim that a moderate muslim is a bad muslim all the time in this board. But I never heard any argument that supports the claim.

I would like to hear an argument supporting this claim using quotations from the Quran only.

I agree that a good muslim in the eyes of non-muslim people is a bad muslim in the eyes of a sunni/shia people, I think that's because the mainstream Islam relies too much on the hadith and sunna . That's why I want to see quotes from the Quran.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:03 AM   #2
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An interesting question. Why not research it yourself?
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:09 AM   #3
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There is nothing wrong with moderate Muslims.

The main problem is that this generation of Muslims we hear about worship the Koran and not God. They're major misunderstanding is that the Koran is a subsidiary to God and should not be the centerpiece of their belief.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:07 AM   #4
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Ho Boy! Are moderate Christians bad Christians?
Are moderate Hindu's bad Hindu's?
Are moderate Atheist's bad Atheist's?
People are people, no matter what tags they apply to themselves, or others apply to them, in every group are to be found the good, the bad, and the ugly.
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
"60.1": O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.
The passage above may be construed as suggesting moderation is unacceptable for a true Muslim and that therefore a moderate Muslim is a 'bad Muslim.' My interpretation is that toleration of non-believers is a deviation from the faith but that is just my interpretation.
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:50 AM   #6
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Quote:
Al-Baqara (The Cow). 002.62
Yusuf Ali :
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
M. H Shakir :
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
M. Pickthal :
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Mohsin Khan :
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
This verse is clarified by the following verse :

Quote:
Aal-e-Imran (Imran’s family). 003.85
Yusuf Ali :
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
M. H Shakir :
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
M. Pickthal :
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
Mohsin Khan :
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Now, everybody can interpret these verses in many ways :

1 - Certainly, whoever desires a religion other than Islam will go to Hell.
2A - Allah will do what is necessary for that, no need to help Him.
or
2B - It will be a good action to help God, by killing the kuffār (plural of kāfir).

In a religious context kāfir means a non-Muslim, and it is often used to mean "unbeliever" or "infidel". For example, the novelist Salman Rushdie was declared a kāfir in a Fatwa of Ayatollah Khomeini.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianthe View Post
Quote:
"60.1": O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.
The passage above may be construed as suggesting moderation is unacceptable for a true Muslim and that therefore a moderate Muslim is a 'bad Muslim.' My interpretation is that toleration of non-believers is a deviation from the faith but that is just my interpretation.
Thank you Xianthe.

In this verse, the definition of an enemy is not the non-believers.

The enemy is :

1- They deny what has come to you of the truth.
2- And they drive out the Apostle and his followers because they believe in Allah, their Lord.

Indeed, anyone who loves and supports an enemy will be considered a traitor in any part of this world.

The enemy here are suppose to be the pagans of Mecca who drove out the muslims from their homes and took all what they left behind. Not all of the unbelievers.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
Quote:
Al-Baqara (The Cow). 002.62
Yusuf Ali :
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
M. H Shakir :
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
M. Pickthal :
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
Mohsin Khan :
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
This verse is clarified by the following verse :

Quote:
Aal-e-Imran (Imran’s family). 003.85
Yusuf Ali :
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
M. H Shakir :
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
M. Pickthal :
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
Mohsin Khan :
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Now, everybody can interpret these verses in many ways :

1 - Certainly, whoever desires a religion other than Islam will go to Hell.
2A - Allah will do what is necessary for that, no need to help Him.
or
2B - It will be a good action to help God, by killing the kuffār (plural of kāfir).

In a religious context kāfir means a non-Muslim, and it is often used to mean "unbeliever" or "infidel". For example, the novelist Salman Rushdie was declared a kāfir in a Fatwa of Ayatollah Khomeini.
I don't see how anyone can reach the interpretation 2B. Could you please show me how did you reach this conclusion.

We are discussing the material in the Quran, not how some Muslims act.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:24 PM   #9
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Thank you Salam. I have read the Qu'ran several times and have five different translations I believe. Unfortunately, none has a commentary so I am always left to interpret what I read without any understanding of the context. As for a recent voice of moderation in Islam you may want to check out this excerpt from MEMRI: http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD181308. It opens with the following:

Quote:
Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari: "In my opinion, the people who try to impose a single religion, a single culture, or single political regime oppose the will of Allah. Allah created human beings, and the Koran says: 'but they will not cease to differ' until Judgment Day.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salam View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huon View Post
<snip>
Now, everybody can interpret these verses in many ways :

1 - Certainly, whoever desires a religion other than Islam will go to Hell.
2A - Allah will do what is necessary for that, no need to help Him.
or
2B - It will be a good action to help God, by killing the kuffār (plural of kāfir).

In a religious context kāfir means a non-Muslim, and it is often used to mean "unbeliever" or "infidel". For example, the novelist Salman Rushdie was declared a kāfir in a Fatwa of Ayatollah Khomeini.
I don't see how anyone can reach the interpretation 2B. Could you please show me how did you reach this conclusion.

We are discussing the material in the Quran, not how some Muslims act.
Unfortunately, the Quran can be interpreted by a quiet and sincere muslim (I have met some), or by a fanatic. (The same remark applies to other religions, as well).

On another side, it is not easy to discuss the material in the Quran, since there are several schools of interpretation. Which school is authorized by Allah ?

Same with the "Christians", catholics, protestants of some sort, etc...

My opinion is this : if he/she lives in an unsettled period, a "moderate" believer will be considered as an heretic, or a traitor, or a hypocrite, by another "excited" believer, who will boast that he is the true interpreter of the faith.

The Europeans have had such an experience between 1500 and 1650. The "moderate" Catholics and the "moderate" Protestants had to shut up, or flee, if they wanted to save their lifes. Many thousands people died.

And the Muslims are living now in an unsettled period.
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