RED DAVE

From Lysimachus:
Show proof that we're not looking at an illegal dig. If, in fact, this is a legal dig at the Garden Tomb (itself a 19th Century fantasy) show is the permit. Conspiracy theories about Palestinians and Jews just won't cut it.

It is rather paranoid of you to come up with all this nonsensical evidence, not one shred of which has been verified by professional archaeological channels.

Tell you what. Come up with the blood sample report, and we'll take you seriously. that a US document from a US lab. If you can't do that, well ...

And, by the way, could you please explicate what you meant by King Solomon's pillars and the Legs of Christ. We Jews are not big on Christ, as you must know, and as far as I know the only pillars connected with Solomon (if, in fact, he wxisted, were those in front of the Temple).

RED DAVE

Sauron

You talk as if you personally witnessed it. Did you?

Apologies if you've given this info before, but what Israeli newspaper? Is there a link to the article?

So you did not, in fact, see anything at all. Other than a PR movie produced on DVD.

Amaleq13

According to an article by Gabriel Barkay (“The Garden Tomb: Was Jesus Buried Here?� Biblical Archaeology Review, March/April 1986) the Garden Tomb is in an area with numerous other tombs cut into the rock but they all date from 7th-8th centuries BCE. The Jerusalem tombs that date from the Second Temple period are located further north of the city.

Wallener

None, actually. Simple question: can you produce copies of Wyatt's dig licenses or not? And...where you mislead about coral growth mechanisms, or was that an "exaggeration" on your part?

Sauron

Solomon erected these pillars? Fascinating. This act of contruction is recorded in....................*what*document(s), exactly?

Sauron

To be fair to Lysimachus - what he's talking about here appears to be his personal interpretation. He's asking us to imagine Christ as an enormous giant, with one leg on the left side of the crossing, and the other leg on the right side of the crossing, making a way for the Hebrews to escape.

Christ being equal to God in that scenario, you understand.

And in that scenario, these two pillars would represent the legs of Christ, one on each shore.

Wallener

Yeah, I'm a little mystified by that myself - Solomon's Pillars weren't even erected, they are a natural rock formation.

http://redseadesert.com/html/006solomon.html

RED DAVE

Fro Sauron:
Oh. Now I understand why there's three of them: one shorter one in the middle.

RED DAVE

Charlesknight

Hey Lysimachus - I notice that Wikipedia does not seem to have a page on Ron Wyatt. you should take a stab at doing one, considering how many places he is discussed it would be a handy reference.

Lysimachus

Sauron,

The claim of materialistic consistency is one thing, such as “it was a metal pin�, a theory developed revolving around “the metal pin� is another. A theory is very different from a claim, but the theory is that the evidence of a metal pin lends significant credence to the possibility of a rolling stone covering the Garden Tomb. Everyone has a right to develop a theory, even WAR. In my estimation, the theory is sound. A rolling stone would have fit perfectly in the built in crevice-lip track along the outside entrance of the tomb.

Oh? As intelligent as you are, I didn’t think I would have to bother providing you a link with this long-known allegation:

“Fleming says he left after this incident. Others have given similar disturbing reports concerning Wyatt’s conduct at the site. One such observer, the Reverend John Woods, noted, “I saw him explaining to a group that a piece of metal embedded in the face of the Garden Tomb was part of the seal Pilate had placed upon the tomb. In fact it was a piece of shrapnel from the war [in 1967].� -- http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/wyatt.html

“The Old City lies in the eastern part of Jerusalem, and was formerly part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, but was captured by the Israelis in 1967. Evidence of the war can still be seen at the Zion Gate, where the wall is full of bullet holes. To the east of the Old City is the West Bank, an Arab area, including the Mount of Olives. To the west is the modern part of the city, inhabited by Jews and Israeli Arabs, a modern bustling city of commerce and banks, shops and buses, busy streets and restaurants.� -- http://www.servantsnews.com/sn0109/f...1jerusalem.htm --- Thus you will have critics who will also automatically wish to associate the holes in the Garden Tomb as “bullet holes�.

So much for your “scholarly� research! :wave:

The IAA report does not specifically say that the pin cannot be dated. It says that the SEM samples give only the composition of the samples, not the date of the pin. I don’t see how this in ANY way is stating that radiometric dating cannot be applied.

What mountain of evidence? The debate as to the true accuracy of radiocarbon and radiometric dating has been and will forever be debated. There is nothing solid. Of course there is a “degree� of accuracy. But it cannot be relied on in my opinion as “absolute� proof against or for something. Radiometric dating may exhibit greater accuracy than Radio Carbon, but there still is a great degree of ambiguity either way. Ancient documents that mention an artifact in many cases lend more credence to archaeological data than actually dating the artifacts, thus you have Yehiel Zelinger alluding to this fact by stating: “According to our knowledge, it was common in ancient times to set metal pins in molted lead. For example, tons of metal pins were set in lead, in the construction of the Coliseum in Rome. The same technique was used in Roman period sites in Israel therefore the tomb can be dated to the Roman period.�.

Are you now going to rail at Zelinger and accuse him of “shoddy archaeology�?

Bah. Shooting themselves in the foot is nothing but a fabrication of your wishful thinking. One can feel leery and somewhat hesitant toward a certain method or procedure, yet still be open to the possibility of performing them.

If they went “back-and-forth�, then of course not. But when you dig deep to find out what they’re really saying, this isn’t the case.



McDuffie,

Glad you were at least able to abandon the grotesque theory that Ron planted the wheels. Some will be stuck on that alone, and if they cannot prove it, will resort to other new tactics reasoning against the wheels as yourself. But you are right. I agree 100% with you that the chariot wheels found in the Red Sea do not prove one single word of the book of Exodus to be true! But you see my friend, that isn’t how we came to our conclusion. The chariot wheels are only a simple SMALL cherry on top to the overall-grand picture that helps lead us to our conclusion. If you had taken the time to read any of the data mentioned, you would have noted that there is PLENTY more to add to the puzzle than just “chariot wheels�. We have the pillars on either side, the under water sand bank giving perfect gradients for a crossing, the fact that we find the blackened peak of Mt. Sinai in Saudi Arabia (Gal. 4:25) (Jebel Al Lawz = Mountain of the Law), the massive beach that fits the EXACT description of the accounts of Josephus (with ridge of mountains on either end “obstructing their flight�), the fact that they were “entangled in the land�, the fact that they were OUT of Egypt BEFORE they crossed the Red Sea (erasing any possibility of Suez) according to SEVERAL verses, the discovered 12 springs of Elim on the way directly toward Jebel Al Lawz (Exodus 15:27), etc. etc….the list just goes on and on. This should be enough to an honest seeker for truth think things through deeply and consider the data. In the end, you will see just how overwhelming this evidence should have been to you.

Sven

Once again, they aren’t claims, so requiring some experts that agree with this has little merit. If this is the Garden Tomb, and the story of Jesus is true, then the stone rolling away shaving off the pin makes perfect sense. And WAR has every right to form their own opinion. The claim is that it was a metal pin, and that’s where it ends. It’s the duty of everyone else from that point to come up with their own theories of its purpose.

This same principle applies with the Durupinar site near Dogubayazit. We have a boat-shaped object that detects a ton of longitudinal and transverse lines with Subsurface Interface Radar, along with thousands of metal hot-spots picked up by the White’s Metal Detectors—data not picked up anywhere else around the formation. The �claim� is that it is a man-made object shaped like a boat—a very large boat. That’s where the claim ends. The theory is that it is Noah’s Ark. And that is the theory of Wyatt Archaeological Research, based on the dimensions and location of the object. Fortunately, one great doctor agreed with this theory. His name was Ekrum Akurgal, the “dean� of Archaeology who passed away in 1985. Others may come up with different theories, though it is unlikely that anyone can come up with a good theory that an ancient vessel was dragged into the mountains of Urartu (or Ararat) thousands of miles from the nearest sea for a good reason.

Hopefully by now you get a glimpse of the difference between theories and claims, and who has right to them.

Prester John,

We can only go by what the sources tell us. It may not have been “pure� gold, but perhaps partially mixed with another metal to withstand the wear and tear. If the story that the Egyptian army was destroyed in the Gulf of Aqaba is true, then it would most certainly make sense to think the priesthood went with them—afterall, this was a divine act, and Pharaoh would have wanted the blessings of all the Egyptian gods on his side. We know that the priesthood also took part in fighting campaigns, but kept to the back. Their task was not to fight, but to inspire courage into the soldiers and to see that the gods were on “their side�. There is good reason to infer that their chariots had a more “symbolic function�, which would reflect power and the support of the gods.

There is an inscription of Thutmoses III (18th Dynasty) which relates:

"He went forth, none like him, slaying the barbarians, smiting Retenu, bringing their princes as living captives, their chariots wrought with gold, bound to their horses."--(The Ancient Near East (1958) vol 1., p 175-183, Editor J. B. Pritchard, Princeton University Press, Princeton, USA.)

That is just one of the relations to gold chariots, as it is repeated several times in the document.

This is not to mention that there are numerous other inscriptions of the kings of the 18th Dynasty receiving gold-plated foreign chariots, either as spoils of war or as tribute received from conquered peoples. Some inscriptions tell us that these gilded chariots were many times dedicated to various temples and gods, which meant that the priests would receive these chariots. Another one of Thutmoses III’s inscriptions state that the king went to war in a “glittering chariot of electrum�-- [Breasted, `Records', Vol. II, Sec. 430, line 3]. It could be possible that the pharaoh was at the rear of the army. But these are small details we may never fully know.


You lost me there. Not sure what you mean. Scale? Suspicious that what was is not there?

Indeed, it does sound a little fantastic, doesn’t it? Mysteriously, all 5 of these discoveries are STILL to THIS day under debate and heavy discussion. Critics within the last 5-10 years have basically “shut-up�. They aren’t talking about it anymore. Almost all the negative articles ever written are 8 years old or more. I think they are afraid to say anything more negative, because if his discoveries DO eventually turn out to be proven with complete certainty, they do not want to be embarrassed. Especially now after the hard research Dr. Lennart Moller is putting into this and the closer relationships WAR is building with the IAA. You’ll have to wait sometime later this year (or perhaps early next year) for the new documentary series coming out called “The Exodus Case� (www.exoduscase.com). The theater/TV version should be shorter, the DVD version should be the full 3hr/3 part documentary.

Sven,

Lennart Moller himself has brought several of these bones himself and had them tested. They were found to be ancient coralized bones.

The human femur bone itself was brought up by Aaron Sen, who attended some of Jonathan’s London lectures, wanted to see for himself. On July 1, 1998, Aaron phoned us from London to report that he had just returned from a private diving trip to the Red Sea crossing.

“I found a 4-spoked wheel,� exclaimed Aaron. “And dozens of bones. I took out two of the bones and had them tested by the Department of Osteology at Stockholm University. They identified them as parts of a man’s femur. (The man had been 160 to 170 cm. tall� (i.e. 64-68 inches).

When Aaron asked them about the age of the bones, a lab official replied, “They are from a very long time ago. The bones have mineralized.�

There is no doubt that Lennart Moller, from Stockholm University, was involved with this lab identification. In this video clip here, you will notice this same femur bone being held and analyzed by Moller himself. In the University of Stockholm, Moller would have access to all the latest and most advanced testing methods.

The cattle bone itself I believe was surfaced by Moller himself, and identified as a cow. The bone was severely fractured, as if by some major impact. It could have been a cow for mil production, and a mobile larder for the soldiers. It could have been a great advantage to have some of the provisions in a form which could transport itself, keep fresh and be slaughtered should the need arise. After comparing the size and shape to a Swedish cow, it was concluded that in great probability, this bone represents a petrified radius and elbow bone from a cow/bull/ox, which most likely is several thousand years old. All the images can be seen in vivid clarity in Lennart’s book, The Exodus Case on pages 222-223.

He is trained in the field of marine biology, and works closely with many other biology professors at his university (Karolinska) where he teaches at. When it comes to coral, and salt water petrification, he is satisfactorily qualified.

Perhaps there is a degree of imagination! But creative imagination? Hardly. There has been too much consistency with the types, shapes, and various objects found on the seabed to be just checked off as “creative imaginations�. Moller has extensively studied coral structures, and there is definitely an unnatural pattern lying along the underwater scrape yard (aka “landbridge�). This scrape yard is just pure sand (silt), the type that can be easily walked on if dried up. A pattern of numerous unnatural coral clumps appear across the gulf along the sand bridge. Other professional scientists don’t even seem to bother checking this stuff out. Perhaps they are afraid of the conclusions they will be forced to come to.

And I haven’t? *shrug*. Here I thought that’s what I’ve been doing this whole time. How disappointing. Hmm…we have shapes of wheels, they are round, some have 4 spokes, some have 6, and some 8. Can’t I call them wheels? Heh…even steamship hand wheels are STILL wheels! (if you want to push your cherished luck).

Nothing’s stopping you from distrusting his words. That is your choice. Ron Wyatt was not alone when he went diving. One of his sons have seen this wheel. The fact that several other people, whom I’ve named by name in previous threads, have actually witnessed a number of the coral-encrusted chariot wheels, there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve Wyatt on the gold one. We don’t just have pictures. In the video “Discovered: The Exodus�, we have CLEAR video footage of this chariot wheel. The camera encircles it several times from many angles.

RED DAVE,

Unfortunately, most archaeological channels are Godless and incredibly biased, therefore most of the channels would prove no real beneficial asset to the work.

That would have to be created as an entire different topic. There is much evidence supporting the blood sample. I’ll save it for another time. Much more is yet to be revealed.

Charlesknight,

Come to think about it, that is an excellent idea. I’ll definitely consider it. My Wyatt files are getting huge, and things are starting to get a little mumble jumbled. I’m going to have to figure out just what’s the most important to compile. Heh.