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Malachi151 · 11-30-2006, 07:53 AM

According to the synoptics Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, according to John, on the day before. Why the contradiction?

I believe that this has to do with the way that they crafted their stories from the scriptures.

Josephus tells us:

Quote:

The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the Passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the ewe lamb which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days.
- Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews

So, Mark, following this tradition, has Jesus crucified on the first day of Passover, which is the 15th day of Nissan, for Jesus to serve as the symbolic sacrificial ewe lamb.

Let's see what John says though:

Quote:

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

The breaking of the bones refers to the sacrificial lamb discussed on Numbers 9:

Quote:

...they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations.

This would be why John has Jesus sacrificed on the 14th day of Nissan, as opposed to what would be the 15th in the synoptics, which don't reference this passage.

The tradition of not leaving the Passover lamb out over night probably also accounts for why Jesus dies in one day in all the gospels and is "put away" before the morning.

aa5874 · 11-30-2006, 08:37 AM

Malachi 151, your observation strengthens your case that Jesus Christ was fabricated directly from the OT.

EarlOfLade · 11-30-2006, 08:40 AM

Because it never happened and the authors got it all mixed up. It's hard to be 100% consistent when you make things up.

Malachi151 · 11-30-2006, 09:22 AM

This whole thing is a little bit confusing. Wikipedia says this about Passover:

Quote:

The term Pesach also refers to the lamb or kid which was designated as the Passover sacrifice (called the Korban Pesach in Hebrew). Four days before the Exodus, the Israelites were commanded to set aside a lamb or kid (Exodus 12:3) and inspect it daily for blemishes. During the day on the 14th of Nisan, they were to slaughter the animal and use its blood to mark their lintels and doorposts. Up until midnight on the 15th of Nisan, they were to consume the lamb. Each family (or group of families) gathered together to eat a meal that included the meat of the Korban Pesach while the Tenth Plague ravaged Egypt.

In subsequent years, during the existence of the Tabernacle and later the Temple in Jerusalem, the Korban Pesach was eaten during the Passover Seder on the 15th of Nisan. However, following the destruction of the Temple, no sacrifices may be offered or eaten.

So, basically, this Passover feast was moved from the 14th to the 15th, but it still said 14th in the scriptures, so that's why John moved the crucifixion up a day. At least thats what I'm proposing.

spin · 11-30-2006, 11:34 AM

The two sources both agree on the same day.

Mk 15:42 tells us that it was the day of preparation, which he defines as the day before the Sabbath.

Jn 19:13 tells us that it was the day of preparation of the Passover.

John takes the Passover to be the full festival which starts with the passover feast and continues through the week of unleavened bread. There is a Sabbath during that period, the sabbath of the Passover, and the Friday is the day of preparation of the Passover.

From here only come complications. Jn 18:28 says that the priests wanted to "avoid ritual defilement and be able to eat the Passover". The Passover meal itself was on the evening of the Passover, but if the priests were defiled during the day, they should free of impurity by sunset if they ritually bathe and thus be pure for the Passover meal. (At least this is the case of someone defiled during ritual acts dealing with the scapegoat according to MMT 4Q394 frag 3-7, col 1, 17-18 from the DSS, so I think the sunset notion would also have been common at the time.) The meal referred to in Jn 18:28 must be a different, daytime meal of the Passover week, not the meal of the Passover evening. Mark happily ties the Passover and Unleavened Bread together in 14:12, so it's not difficult to see Jn dealing with the Passover week.

There are further complications, but I guess they can wait...

spin

Malachi151 · 11-30-2006, 11:55 AM

Hmmm... I've seen several sources that claim that the days of these events are different between the synoptics and John, including Robert M. Price, and reading them myself I got that impression as well, but you are right, after the crucifixion they both say the same thing.

This disagreement comes from events before the crucifixion. See for example:

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/Resurrection.html#date

Quote:

A perfunctory examination of New Testament texts reveals that the Books of Matthew,1 Mark,2 and Luke3 all agree that the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder. Bearing in mind that Jesus was crucified on the very next day following the Last Supper, that would mean that according to all three synoptic4 Gospels, Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan (for example, if tonight were a Passover Seder, then tomorrow would be the first day of Passover5).

The author of the Book of John, however, completely contradicts the first three Gospels, and maintains that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan. The Book of John reads, "Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover . . . . Then he handed him over to them to be crucified." (19:14-16)

So, it seems that there is more confusion to this timeline then, or something.

Edit:

This seems to shed a little more light on the subject, but only to highlight more confusion:

http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Jesus_Death.htm

Quote:

All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on a Friday afternoon, that the women rested on a Saturday, and that the empty tomb was discovered early on a Sunday morning. However, the Gospels differ as to whether the Feast of Passover was on Friday or on Saturday in the year Jesus was killed; thus they provide conflicting evidence as to exactly which calendar year it could have been. According to astronomical calculations, the 15th of Nisan in the Jewish lunar calendar fell on a Thursday evening / Friday in AD 27, while it fell on a Friday evening / Saturday in AD 30 and AD 33.

Seeing as I don't think that this actually happened, I doubt that the year has anything to do with it, but this is nevertheless interesting. I think that John simply fudged in order to get Jesus killed on the day of the sacrifice of the Passover lamb.

JoyJuice · 12-01-2006, 01:21 AM

Perhaps a clue from John 1:

35 Again the next day John was standing with two of his disciples,
36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"

Quite the contrast from the secret Messiah of Mark where no one knows who he is and partakes of the passover lamb, to the book of John where they know exaclty the function of Jesus, and he becomes the passover lamb.

John Kesler · 12-02-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoyJuice

...the book of John where they know exaclty the function of Jesus, and he becomes the passover lamb.

John's portrayal of Jesus as a Passover lamb has been well-documented by scholars. Aside from changing the date of the crucifixion and noting that, as was the case with the Passover lamb, none of Jesus' bones was broken, John contains another difference from the other gospels. Compare these passages:

Quote:

Mark 15:36 (NRSV)
36 And someone ran, filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down."

Matthew 27:48 (NRSV)
48 At once one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink.

Luke 23:36 (NRSV)
36The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine,

John19:29 (NRSV)
29 A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth.

Why does John say that "a branch of hyssop" was used to offer wine to Jesus? The answer is found in Exodus 12, the story of the first Passover:

Quote:

Exodus 12:21-22 (NRSV):
21 Then Moses called all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go, select lambs for your families, and slaughter the passover lamb. 22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and touch the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood in the basin. None of you shall go outside the door of your house until morning.

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11-30-2006, 08:37 AM	#2
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Malachi 151, your observation strengthens your case that Jesus Christ was fabricated directly from the OT.

11-30-2006, 08:40 AM	#3
EarlOfLade Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,310	Because it never happened and the authors got it all mixed up. It's hard to be 100% consistent when you make things up.

11-30-2006, 11:34 AM	#5
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	The two sources both agree on the same day. Mk 15:42 tells us that it was the day of preparation, which he defines as the day before the Sabbath. Jn 19:13 tells us that it was the day of preparation of the Passover. John takes the Passover to be the full festival which starts with the passover feast and continues through the week of unleavened bread. There is a Sabbath during that period, the sabbath of the Passover, and the Friday is the day of preparation of the Passover. From here only come complications. Jn 18:28 says that the priests wanted to "avoid ritual defilement and be able to eat the Passover". The Passover meal itself was on the evening of the Passover, but if the priests were defiled during the day, they should free of impurity by sunset if they ritually bathe and thus be pure for the Passover meal. (At least this is the case of someone defiled during ritual acts dealing with the scapegoat according to MMT 4Q394 frag 3-7, col 1, 17-18 from the DSS, so I think the sunset notion would also have been common at the time.) The meal referred to in Jn 18:28 must be a different, daytime meal of the Passover week, not the meal of the Passover evening. Mark happily ties the Passover and Unleavened Bread together in 14:12, so it's not difficult to see Jn dealing with the Passover week. There are further complications, but I guess they can wait... spin

12-01-2006, 01:21 AM	#7
JoyJuice Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Beautiful Downtown Tacoma Posts: 370	Perhaps a clue from John 1: 35 Again the next day John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" Quite the contrast from the secret Messiah of Mark where no one knows who he is and partakes of the passover lamb, to the book of John where they know exaclty the function of Jesus, and he becomes the passover lamb.

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