Johnny Skeptic

Lee Merrill claims that the survival of the Jewish people is the fulfillment of some Bible prophecies, but there is no evidence that the prophecies were inspired by God. First of all, there is not any evidence at all that God made a land promise to Abraham. Second of all, regarding Lee's mention of Hitler's attempts to destroy the Jews, there was a much greater number of Jews living outside of Germany than there were inside Germany, so his argument is preposterous. If God actually intended to preserve the Jewish people, I do not have any idea why he did so. The Jews had Jesus killed, and the vast majority of them have always rejected Christianity since it was founded. In addition, the state in which the Jews have survived is most certainly NOT indicative of God's favoritism towards Jews. If anything, the indication from God to Jews is "you guys are on your own."

Toto

There is no evidence that the Jews had Jesus killed.

Johnny Skeptic

I agree. I was just going along with the Christian version for debate purposes. I wonder why Christians do not find it strange that the Christian God has chosen to preserve a people who for the most part have historically rejected his Son.

Toto

Not all Christians believe this, especially since the Holocaust hit them over the head with the consequences of the medieval passion play assertion that evil Jews in league with the devil killed their Christ.

In any case, Christians have a variety of ways of rationalizing their beliefs and the interaction of their beliefs and what they see in the world. You can't speak for all of them, and you can't pick a few parts of doctrine and ignore others and expect to have anything coherent. The survival of the Jewish people is no more of a theological problem that the growth of the Islamic religion or the overpopulation of the earth.

Chris Weimer

I hate to interrupt here, but Matthew is very clear that the Jews have an eternal responsibility to the death of Jesus Christ. Whether about them in cahoots with el diablo or whether Christians want to regard Matthew in such matters are totally different stories. Christians aren't necessarily the most consistent people.

Johnny Skeptic

Following is my revised opening post:

Lee Merrill claims that the survival of the Jewish people is the fulfillment of some Bible prophecies, but there is no evidence that the prophecies were inspired by God. First of all, there is not any evidence at all that God made a land promise to Abraham. Second of all, regarding Lee's mention of Hitler's attempts to destroy the Jews, there was a much greater number of Jews living outside of Germany than there were inside Germany, so his argument is preposterous.

andrewcriddle

I have doubts whether 'his blood be upon us and on our children' is intended to imply an eternal responsibility upon the Jewish people.

In Biblical thought the responsibility before God of people for their ancestors' crime is usually for a limited number of generations. See for example Exodus 34:7 'visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation.'

Matthew is probably primarily thinking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE a generation or so after the death of Jesus.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

Andrew, what about Lee Merrill's claim that the survival of the Jewish people is a fulfillmemt of some Bible prophecies? What about Lee's views about hte Babylon prophecy and the Tyre prophecy. What is one of your favorite fulfilled prophecies? Do you categorize yourself as a fundamentalist Christian?

andrewcriddle

a/ I believe that the continued existence of the Jewish people is a demonstration of God's faithfulness, whether or not it is a clear fulfillment of specific scriptures.

b/ I am rather dubious about what Lee has claimed about Tyre and Babylon although I have to confess to having read these very very very long threads rather rapidly.

c/ I suppose I would class Isaiah 53 as one of my favourite fulfilled scriptures regrding it as fulfilled by Jesus Christ

d/ I would not regard myself as a fundamentalist Christian in the usual definition of fundamentalist. (although you may be using the term widely to include any orthodox Protestant in which case my answer would be different.)

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

Why is that?

The key verse in Isaiah 53 basically says that "he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities," but there is not any evidence at all that Jesus' shed blood and death remitted the sins of believers.

What I am most interested in is do you oppose physician assisted suicide, homosexuality, and physician assisted suicide, and do you believe that homosexuals who are professing Christians will go to hell.