Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 08:26 AM

I don't know if people are aware but Professor Markus Vinzent Chair of History of Theology from King's College London in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies has a new blog and most of his discussions are about Marcion (he has two books coming out in this year and next arguing for Marcionite primacy). In a recent post about Justin's shared reading that disagrees with Luke 10:22/Matt 11:27 we had a little discussion where he makes this important statement regarding the relationship between Justin and Marcion:

Quote:

I think, it can make sense, if, for Justin, the only known written form of the Gospel (and we should not forget that the term 'Gospel', for Justin, was pejorative: 'so-called Gospel', and not yet associated with authoritative etc.) was that of Marcion. Justin obviously knew of attempts to alter this texts and qualified those as attempts as 'memories' of Apostles, so-called Gospel(s), but as his own books show, they had not yet gained his respect. This is only changing in and through Irenaeus.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/20...d-gospels.html

My point here is that Anglo-American scholarship is so far behind the curve when it comes to Marcionitism. If you can't read German the next best thing is to engage in discussions with a professor who can. Vinzent's blog consistently delivers meaningful exegesis of the Patristic sources related to the Marcion and other topics. It's well worth checking out.

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 08:29 AM

redhulkhulk

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 08:29 AM

m nmkxmxm

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 08:43 AM

That's the danger of leaving the computer on with my four year old around. He likes Red Hulk in case you were wondering

aa5874 · 05-11-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't know if people are aware but Professor Markus Vinzent Chair of History of Theology from King's College London in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies has a new blog and most of his discussions are about Marcion (he has two books coming out in this year and next arguing for Marcionite primacy). In a recent post about Justin's shared reading that disagrees with Luke 10:22/Matt 11:27 we had a little discussion where he makes this important statement regarding the relationship between Justin and Marcion:

I think, it can make sense, if, for Justin, the only known written form of the Gospel (and we should not forget that the term 'Gospel', for Justin, was pejorative: 'so-called Gospel', and not yet associated with authoritative etc.) was that of Marcion. Justin obviously knew of attempts to alter this texts and qualified those as attempts as 'memories' of Apostles, so-called Gospel(s), but as his own books show, they had not yet gained his respect. This is only changing in and through Irenaeus.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/20...d-gospels.html

My point here is that Anglo-American scholarship is so far behind the curve when it comes to Marcionitism. If you can't read German the next best thing is to engage in discussions with a professor who can. Vinzent's blog consistently delivers meaningful exegesis of the Patristic sources related to the Marcion and other topics. It's well worth checking out.

Well, after checking out the writings of Justin Martyr it is BLATANTLY obvious that Justin Martyr's Memoirs of the Apostles was about Jesus Christ who was BORN of a virgin and the Holy Ghost.

Marcion's PHANTOM had NO birth and No flesh.

Check out this from Justin Martyr.

"Dialogue with Trypho"

Quote:

Now this king Herod, at the time when the Magi came to him from Arabia, and said they knew from a star which appeared in the heavens that a King had been born in your country, and that they had come to worship Him, learned from the elders of your people that it was thus written regarding Bethlehem in the prophet: 'And thou, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art by no means least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall go forth the leader who shall feed my people.' Accordingly the Magi from Arabia came to Bethlehem and worshipped the Child, and presented Him with gifts, gold and frankincense, and myrrh; but returned not to Herod, being warned in a revelation after worshipping the Child in Bethlehem.

And Joseph, the spouse of Mary, who wished at first to put away his betrothed Mary, supposing her to be pregnant by intercourse with a man, i.e., from fornication, was commanded in a vision not to put away his wife; and the angel who appeared to him told him that what is in her womb is of the Holy Ghost.

Then he was afraid, and did not put her away; but on the occasion of the first census which was taken in Jud a, under Cyrenius, he went up from Nazareth, where he lived, to Bethlehem, to which he belonged, to be enrolled; for his family was of the tribe of Judah, which then inhabited that region.

Then along with Mary he is ordered to proceed into Egypt, and remain there with the Child until another revelation warn them to return into Jud a. But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him. I have repeated to you," I continued, "what Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave; but for the sake of those who have come with us to-day, I shall again remind you of the passage."

Then I repeated the passage from Isaiah which I have already written, adding that, by means of those words, those who presided over the mysteries of Mithras were stirred up by the devil to say that in a place, called among them a cave, they were initiated by him. "So Herod, when the Magi from Arabia did not return to him, as he had asked them to do, but had departed by another way to their own country, according to the commands laid on them; and when Joseph, with Mary and the Child, had now gone into Egypt, as it was revealed to them to do; as he did not know the Child whom the Magi had gone to worship, ordered simply the whole of the children then in Bethlehem to be massacred.

And Jeremiah prophesied that this would happen, speaking by the Holy Ghost thus: 'A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and much wailing, Rachel weeping for her children; and she would not be comforted, because they are not.' Therefore, on account of the voice which would be heard from Ramah, i.e., from Arabia(for there is in Arabia at this very time a place called Rama), wailing would come on the place where Rachel the wife of Jacob called lsrael, the holy patriarch, has been buried, i.e., on Bethlehem; while the women weep for their own slaughtered children, and have no consolation by reason of what has happened to them....

You must know that it was claimed Marcion's Phantom came DIRECTLY from heaven and was without birth and real flesh.

Justin Martyr "Memoirs of the Apostles" does NOT support DUALISM the Doctrine of Marcion.

You must know that it was claimed that Marcion used the Doctrine of Empedocles.

"Refutation of All Heresies"

Quote:

...But (the real author of the system) is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum.

And (Marcion) despoiled this (philosopher), and imagined that up to the present would pass undetected his transference, under the same expressions, of the arrangement of his entire heresy from Sicily into the evangelical narratives.

Marcion's Phantom had NO birth and NO flesh and the Doctrine of Marcion was from Empedocles.

The Memoirs of the Apostles was NOT derived from Marcion or Empedocles based on Hippolytus since it does not contain the doctine of DUALISM.

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 09:47 AM

We have this discussion many times before. No serious scholar thinks the works of Justin are immaculate. The manuscripts from what I remember are corrupt and preserved in most cases with only one exemplar. There was serious interpolation in the writings of Justin. These are not Vinzent's opinions. They are my own.

Toto · 05-11-2011, 11:01 AM

Roger Pearse on Markus Vinzent

andrewcriddle · 05-11-2011, 12:02 PM

One problem with identifying Justin's Gospel with that of Marcion is that Justin's Gospel seems to have included a birth narrative eg Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, `Be it unto me according to thy word

whereas Marcion's Gospel apparently had no such narrative.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 05-11-2011, 01:15 PM

The question of course is whether the virgin birth reading is a later interpolation. Two points in favor of this proposition:

1) Irenaeus cites Justin as disagreeing with Marcion on the correct reading of Luke 10:22 in Dialogue in AH 4.6.2 even though this is Justin's reading in Dialogue
2) Justin's student Tatian's Diatessaron did not include the virigin birth narrative.

One can be certain that Tatian thought he was being loyal to his master. So we have two reasons to believe that the virgin birth narrative was an addition. Irenaeus seems to take some pride in knowing the truth about Justin in the same way that he knew the truth about Polycarp. Irenaeus is very capable of misrepresenting and interpolating texts. I think it was a fake especially given the flying Jesus in Tatian's Diatessaron (i.e. not born of woman)

And what do we say about aa agreeing with ac? What's next spin and earl doherty getting married? Joel Watts and myself signing up for the amazing race?

aa5874 · 05-11-2011, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

.... Irenaeus is very capable of misrepresenting and interpolating texts....

The same Irenaeus whose writings that you claim must be ACCEPTED as true? You have got to be joking.

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05-11-2011, 08:29 AM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	redhulkhulk

05-11-2011, 08:43 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's the danger of leaving the computer on with my four year old around. He likes Red Hulk in case you were wondering

05-11-2011, 09:47 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	We have this discussion many times before. No serious scholar thinks the works of Justin are immaculate. The manuscripts from what I remember are corrupt and preserved in most cases with only one exemplar. There was serious interpolation in the writings of Justin. These are not Vinzent's opinions. They are my own.

05-11-2011, 11:01 AM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Roger Pearse on Markus Vinzent

05-11-2011, 01:15 PM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The question of course is whether the virgin birth reading is a later interpolation. Two points in favor of this proposition: 1) Irenaeus cites Justin as disagreeing with Marcion on the correct reading of Luke 10:22 in Dialogue in AH 4.6.2 even though this is Justin's reading in Dialogue 2) Justin's student Tatian's Diatessaron did not include the virigin birth narrative. One can be certain that Tatian thought he was being loyal to his master. So we have two reasons to believe that the virgin birth narrative was an addition. Irenaeus seems to take some pride in knowing the truth about Justin in the same way that he knew the truth about Polycarp. Irenaeus is very capable of misrepresenting and interpolating texts. I think it was a fake especially given the flying Jesus in Tatian's Diatessaron (i.e. not born of woman) And what do we say about aa agreeing with ac? What's next spin and earl doherty getting married? Joel Watts and myself signing up for the amazing race?

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