Toto

Southern California evangelist Wiley S. Drake, pastor of the First Southern Baptist Church of Buena Park, (next door to Disneyland,) urged his followers to pray for the death of Americans United for Church and State leaders who were trying to get the IRS to investigate him for violations of the tax code relating to political activity.

He told his followers to pray using Psalm 109, including Verse 9, which says: Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.


Los Angeles Times reporter and admitted evangelical Christian Connie Kang has written one of her pandering articles on prayer, Prayer for opponent's misfortune finds little support, in which she interviews several local "experts" on prayer about this embarrassment to Christianity.

She interviews Rev. Kurt Fredrickson, "who directs doctoral programs for 700 working pastors from around the world at Fuller Theological Seminary," who says

After letting off steam, did David go back to being a rational forgiving peaceful type? Is this reflected in a later Psalm?

Kang then interviews The Rev. John Goldingay, a professor of the Old Testament at Fuller, who claims that the benefit of imprecatory prayers is that you leave any action up to God.

Interestingly, there is no tradition of imprecatory prayer in Islam, and a Jewish Rabbi claimed that such prayers were not "normative" in Judaism.

On the advice of his attorneys, Pastor Drake declined to be interviewed.

lee_merrill

Well, the Psalms are not generally tied to events, nor do they appear to be in some sort of chronological order, so this is a bit difficult to answer. Note however, David at the end of his life asking his son to repay this one and that one (2 Kings 2:5-9), though Scripture makes no comment as to whether this was appropriate, it just says he did this.

How about asking if this Psalm is prescriptive?

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that before.

But prayer in Islam as far as I understand is not the same as Christian or Judaic prayer, Muslim prayers to God are good works, they are repetitious, and if they have requests they pray to saints, but not as a rule to Allah.

I'm not sure how we could say King David was not a normative Jew! And there are a number of such Psalms.

But C.S. Lewis took the approach of the rabbi, and said these are expressions of anger we would do well to note as illustrating all the destructive and damaging thoughts we can set off in a person's heart by injuring them, and this is a good point. Yet this also requires malice on the part of David in praying these prayers.

How is it that these prayers could be prayed with no vengefulness or relish at these prospects? Well, consider that Jesus quotes from Psalm 41 in reference to Judas, which has an imprecation following "he who shared my bread has lifted up his heel against me," and a verse in Psalm 109 is applied to Judas: "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership." (Ps. 109:8; Acts 1:20). So these events were acknowledged as happening, so the imprecations of David are not all regrettable venting of anger, thoughts which were not to be considered applicable to the situation.

But again, how is it that these prayers could be prayed with no vengefulness or relish at the prospect? We can note further that Jesus, when betrayed by Judas, called him "friend," indicating no malice or desire for harm even then, though he had quoted from Psalm 41 at the Passover meal prior to this, and called him "the son of perdition" (John 17:12).

So the question I think becomes whether these statements could really be predictions of impending judgment (if God sends a judgment, can people say God did well? if so, they can pray such prayers, with God to make the decision), and whether there can be such prayers not with vengefulness, but even then with grief.

Jeremiah 11:20 But, O Lord Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you I have committed my cause.

Yet Jeremiah was "the weeping prophet."

Pseudo-Deity

When reading about Spinoza, I recall he was cursed or something by the rabbinical powers that be. I recall it was extremely hyperbolic, basically saying that they want all this bad shit to happen to him. I also recall hearing about Rabbi's cursing one of Israel's PMs after striking a deal with Palestine. Sorry for being vague. Anyone else know what I am talking about?

Steven Carr

Words that God chose to inspire, of course.

storytime

What about the seven bowls of wrath poured onto the heads of those whom the prophets hated? (book of Revelation)

Wedge

Hmm. Didn't Jesus say wishing to harm someone and being angry with them is equivalent to murder?

So 'just letting off steam' is the same as killing someone? But psalm 109 gives people permission to do this, and just be human in the worst of times.

Wait, isn't just being human what everyone is doomed to hell for? I'm so confused. [/sarcasm]

Yahweh must've inspired this psalm because he thought people really need examples of vicious, vengeful prayers. The rest of the OT being all sweetness and light, ya know. That's the wonderful thing about the psalms. [/sarcasm. This time I mean it.]