ziffel

Dumb subject line but I'm not exactly sure how to phrase it. I was told last year, that the Jesus story line in the bible was almost exactly the same as another 'savior' type fellow, who lived several hundred years before Christ. IIRC, his name started with an M, but I'm not positive.

The similarities went something like:

both claimed savior, both born of a virgin, both were given as a sacrificial lamb, and so on.

Can anyone help me on this one?

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I recall someone mentioning his name was Appilonius...but beyond that I know little. I think it came up on Penn and Teller's Bullsh!t program.

David Vestal

Mithras

I've heard it's not the most well-substantiated bit of history, though.

ziffel

Yeah, that's the guy. Thanks, David. By not being well-substantiated then, would he be a bad example to show someone that Jesus as we know him was based on him?

Chris Weimer

Yes, a very poor example. BTW - what exactly are you trying to show? There is no one character that Jesus Christ mimics. However, if you separate the Jesus from the Christ, you can probably get some general theme for the Christ bit.

David Vestal

I don't know, really. I'm no expert. But there's a ton of stuff in the infidels library; that would probably be the place to start.

A quick search there turns up Richard Carrier addessing exactly that question back in 2000. It's near the bottom.

ziffel

I was going off a now distant memory of a friend of mine last year telling me about this Mithras guy, and how Bible Jesus was basically a clone of this guy. Looks like I might have gotten some bad info. I'm reading the wiki article now. Here's the chunk on similarities to christianity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithrai...o_Christianity

RidingtheScree

Mithras indeed, and it is very well substansiated. However, the more strong claims that are like rock solid substantiated, that Jesus is Mithras, come only from the real experts, who are so involved that conversley it is hard to take them totally right on. They are the most trusted authorities, but they are also most likely to over-emphasize their subject. I for one trust them, and say Jesus is Mithras, if they are not practicing yellow historianism. Otherwise, he is just one of many concepts that created Jesus, who I don't think ever lived in any semblence that can be called the same, even as a root.

Kapyong

Greetings,

As others have noted, there is no exact match.

Some figures that may be relevant include :

MITHRAS - from Persian Mitra, a later Roman myth, many possible similarities, but the evidence is mixed and much of late (consider the name of the hat that the Pope wears.)

Apollonius of Tyana - possibly or probably a real figure, travelling sage, performed miracles, attempted reforms, same period as Jesus, in Greece, Syria, Turkey.

Osiris - ancient egyptian legend, god of underworld, rebirth, died and brought back.

Dionysus - or Bacchus, Greek myth, born from a mortal woman but fathered by a god, returned from the dead, transformed water into wine.

Attis - Phrygian Myth, death-and-rebirth, castrated under a pine tree, but did not decay, reborn as pine tree.

Iasius - Greek myth, son of God, born of virgin mortal woman, died, but ascended to heaven, "healer".


Iasion

Roger Pearse

I'm afraid that this Mithras stuff is all unsound. It relies on assertions by Franz Cumont in the conclusions section of Textes et Monumentes. While it was a great compilation in its day -- the beginning of scientific Mithras study -- it is now a century old and scholars have largely rejected it. In particular his identification of Persian Mitra with Roman Mithras does not explain the lack of iconographic archaeology for Mithras (especially the Mithraea) in Persia.

All the literary texts and archaeology for Mithras date to 80AD and later. Only one -- Plutarch's Life of Pompey -- suggests that Mithras was known before then, and I understand from Manfred Clauss, The Roman cult of Mithras, that the archaeology points so suggestively to Rome as the origin of the cult ca. 50-60 AD that scholars tend to think Plutarch got confused with Perseus.

I have found, from experience, that you should presume any statement about Mithras-as-image-of-Christ made online is nonsense unless it gives a specific reference to the ancient source on which it is based, and even then, you need to be wary. The classic example are supposed 'quotes' which really come from medieval Persian literature (and so are based on Christianity!).

After discovering this, I made a collection of every passage in ancient literature known to me which mentions Mithras, even in passing. It is here and includes a nice photograph of a relief from the Museo Nazionale in Rome which shows how the Mithraic reliefs were originally coloured.

From this, if I recall correctly, I find that the only real parallel is limited to the fact that both Christianity and Mithraism had ritual meals (although Mithras seems to have had seven such, with different ingredients, and derives such from mystery religions). But as Clauss says, such things originate in the common environment in which both arose, rather than being copied one from another. It's worth bearing in mind that Mithras was syncretistic (like all paganism) and would adopt material from others, while Christianity notoriously was not.

All the best,

Roger Pearse