FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-30-2003, 11:22 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: I was hoping you could tell me...
Posts: 31
Default Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

OK, here's one that will get the fundies going...

Now, if I remember correctly, Mary and Joseph weren't married when Mary fell pregnant. And, as we know, the penalty at that time for having a child out of wedlock was stoning. This begs the question:

Did Mary claim that Jesus was the 'Son of God' to avoid being stoned? Let's face it, if you're living in an extremely God fearing society, it would be easy to make such a claim and let religious fervour take it from there...
flapjackboy is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 11:50 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,635
Default Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by flapjackboy
OK, here's one that will get the fundies going...

Now, if I remember correctly, Mary and Joseph weren't married when Mary fell pregnant. And, as we know, the penalty at that time for having a child out of wedlock was stoning. This begs the question:

Did Mary claim that Jesus was the 'Son of God' to avoid being stoned? Let's face it, if you're living in an extremely God fearing society, it would be easy to make such a claim and let religious fervour take it from there...
What is your evidence that stoning was the in-practice form of punishment for getting pregnant while engaged but not married around 4-7 BCE?
Layman is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 12:26 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Superior, CO USA
Posts: 1,553
Default Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by flapjackboy
OK, here's one that will get the fundies going...

Now, if I remember correctly, Mary and Joseph weren't married when Mary fell pregnant. And, as we know, the penalty at that time for having a child out of wedlock was stoning. This begs the question:

Did Mary claim that Jesus was the 'Son of God' to avoid being stoned? Let's face it, if you're living in an extremely God fearing society, it would be easy to make such a claim and let religious fervour take it from there...
It is also highly unlikely. It is far more probable that claims of godhood occured much later, probably after the cruxificion.
Family Man is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 01:05 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bartlesville, Okla.
Posts: 856
Default Re: Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by Layman
What is your evidence that stoning was the in-practice form of punishment for getting pregnant while engaged but not married around 4-7 BCE?
I think if you look in the book of John Chapter 8:1-11 you'll find the story of the woman taken in adultery, ( many think this woman was Mary Magdelence) but in verse 5 it says "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stonbed: But what sayest thou?

The next verse says they did this to tempt Jesus and I think they may have actually set this woman up to do a confrontational meeting with the messiah , however there is no proof of that and I must say this is pure speculation on my part. It does give the evidense scripturally of the law and what it prescribed for adultery back then. I don't know if they were carrying out the letter of the law back then or not.

Its really interesting to read what Jesus did at this meeting. If you read on it says He wrote on the ground and all the accusers left the woman there by herself. I'd bet my pay check the Son of God , the messiah was writing the sins and mis-deeds of the accusers that moments before was screaming to stone her, heck they may have even been with her themselves at some point.
Jim Larmore is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 01:06 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Madrid / I am a: Lifelong atheist
Posts: 885
Default

According to the Infancy Gosepl of James, Joseph and Mary underwent and passed a poison ordeal to prove their truthfulness. These passages suggest that the author felt a need to defend the virgin birth story against contemporary skepticism:

Quote:
XV. I Now Annas the scribe came unto him and said to him: Wherefore didst thou not appear in our assembly ? and Joseph said unto him: I was weary with the journey, and I rested the first day. And Annas turned him about and saw Mary great with child. 2 And he went hastily to the priest and said unto him: Joseph, to whom thou bearest witness [that he is righteous] hath sinned grievously. And the priest said: Wherein ? And he said: The virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, he hath defiled her, and married her by stealth (lit. stolen her marriage), and hath not declared it to the children of Israel. And the priest answered and said: Hath Joseph done this ? And Annas the scribe said: Send officers, and thou shalt find the virgin great with child. And the officers went and found as he had said, and they brought her together with Joseph unto the place of judgement. 3 And the priest said: Mary, wherefore hast thou done this, and wherefore hast thou humbled thy soul and forgotten the Lord thy God, thou that wast nurtured in the Holy of Holies and didst receive food at the hand of an angel and didst hear the hymns and didst dance before the Lord, wherefore hast thou done this ?

But she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth I am pure before him and I know not a man. 4 And the priest said unto Joseph: Wherefore hast thou done this ? And Joseph said: As the Lord my God liveth I am pure as concerning her. And the priest said: Bear no false witness but speak the truth: thou hast married her by stealth and hast not declared it unto the children of Israel, and hast not bowed thine head under the mighty hand that thy seed should be blessed. And Joseph held his peace.

XVI 1 And the priest said: Restore the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph was full of weeping. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the conviction of the Lord, and it will make manifest your sins before your eyes. 2 And the priest took thereof and made Joseph drink and sent him into the hill-country. And he returned whole. He made Mary also drink and sent her into the hill-country. And she returned whole. And all the people marvelled, because sin appeared not in them. 3 And the priest said: If the Lord God hath not made your sin manifest, neither do I condemn you. And he let them go. And Joseph took Mary and departed unto his house rejoicing, and glorifying the God of Israel.
Note that these passages do not indicate any intent to stone either Mary or Joseph to death, but rather to call off the marriage and return Mary to the Temple, as a penalty for their wrongdoing.
beastmaster is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 01:30 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,635
Default Re: Re: Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Larmore
I think if you look in the book of John Chapter 8:1-11 you'll find the story of the woman taken in adultery, ( many think this woman was Mary Magdelence) but in verse 5 it says "Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stonbed: But what sayest thou?
According to my handy-dandy RSV, "most ancient manuscripts omit John 7:53-8:11."

But even if it was circulating indepently and correctly added later, it paints a picture of attempted mob justice. Not to an established systemic application of justice.

Most authorities believe that the Jewish Authorities lacked the authority to inflict the death penalty under Roman law.
Layman is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 03:16 PM   #7
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 3,794
Default

Jim:

Quote:
I think if you look in the book of John Chapter 8:1-11 you'll find the story of the woman taken in adultery, ( many think this woman was Mary Magdelence)
Layman beats me to it: the story is an addition to Jn--I believe it even appears in different places depending on the witness. It also does not mention Mary Magdelene. The whole "fallen woman" thing is a late tradition.

The text quoted by beastmaster demonstrates that the problem pos'd flapjackboy did vex later mythmakers. I am of the opinion that the whole virgin-thang is a late attachment when someone decided to make Junior a "son of a god." It does allow for some snickering in scholarship . . . was she still a virgin when she had James? Do you expect Joseph to buy "that excuse" twice?

Such problems are not a concern for the Synoptics who provide birth stories. Perhaps Jn expands it to the extent he does to remove any sniping.

--J.D.
Doctor X is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 07:50 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the dark places of the world
Posts: 8,093
Default Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by flapjackboy
OK, here's one that will get the fundies going...

Now, if I remember correctly, Mary and Joseph weren't married when Mary fell pregnant. And, as we know, the penalty at that time for having a child out of wedlock was stoning. This begs the question:

Did Mary claim that Jesus was the 'Son of God' to avoid being stoned? Let's face it, if you're living in an extremely God fearing society, it would be easy to make such a claim and let religious fervour take it from there...
I doubt Mary and Joseph would have improved their situation by following your suggestion. Actually, I think that this would have had the opposite effect you believe.

Trying to explain away an out-of-wedlock pregnancy by saying "God did it" would be far more likely to result in a charge of blasphemy - which under Levitical law was punishable by stoning as well.
Sauron is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 08:22 PM   #9
SLD
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 4,109
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by Layman
According to my handy-dandy RSV, "most ancient manuscripts omit John 7:53-8:11."

But even if it was circulating indepently and correctly added later, it paints a picture of attempted mob justice. Not to an established systemic application of justice.

Most authorities believe that the Jewish Authorities lacked the authority to inflict the death penalty under Roman law.
I thought we'd discussed this topic before and determined that it was in the original gospel, but then taken out by later editions only to come back in again? IIRC, didn't Augustine chastise some Christian writers for taking the story out because they thought it condoned sexual sin?

SLD
SLD is offline  
Old 09-30-2003, 08:41 PM   #10
Amos
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Joseph & Mary lied about their son?

Quote:
Originally posted by Family Man
It is also highly unlikely. It is far more probable that claims of godhood occured much later, probably after the cruxificion.
The arrival of the Magi is the evidence of a God child, which btw, is still true today and is why the Eastern Rite of the Catholic church doesn't celebrate Christmas until Jan.6
 
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:00 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.