Daniel

In your opinion, how does Paul view the resurrected body in Corinthians 15? I've heard several different views on this from various scholars, but none of them seem to completely fit. So far I've looked at articles from William Lane Craig and NT Wright, which argue for a bodily resurrection, and on the other side Richard Carrier and Marcus Borg who both seem to think that a spiritual resurrection was in view.

johntheapostate

1 Corinthians 15:12-14 " But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurection of the dead. If there is no resurection of the dead then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised ,our preaching is useless and so is your faith"

It is clear from the Gospels that Jesus was raised in a physical sense. I mean Christians claim the tomb was empty, so Jesus did not leave his body behind. His resurected body still bore the marks of his execution (doubting Thomas) and he was hungry and ate with his disciples

Some Christians I know seem to be embarrased by the concept of a physical resurection. There just does not seem to be that belief that just becouse there are some bones left over that they could be reanimated. It probibly was easier to believe in the beginning, but after 2000 years and counting those bones are crumbling into dust

They point to what Jesus said to the criminal on the cross beside him. Luke 23:43 " Jesus answered him I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" they use this verse to point to there belief that a person is transported directly to heaven or hell at the moment of death. They have no good answers to what the point of a resurection and judgement would be however.

I dont think that the the Greek in which the New Testement was written has any punctuation marks, and translaters have put the comma after the word truth. I have wondered if the concept of the soul would be as well defined in Christianity if the verse had been translated " Jesus answered him, I tell you the truth today, You will be with me in paradise." See how moving the comma forward by one word eliminates the soul concept.

At any rate it shows how scriptural meanings can be changed profoundly by the slightest manipulation of the text

offa

Kings 2-19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the
LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an
hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose
early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.


The above verse is about 185,000 men that were not resurrected,
after Sennacherib, the king of Assyria, was paid off. They went back
home the same heathens they were when they arrived.

offa

Chili

Well if there is no pain and sicknes in heaven we better have a body and live among those who get sick.

Clarice O'C

In _Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?_, 1958, Oscar Cullmann's thesis is that the early Christians, primarily Paul, believed in the "resurrection of the dead" which is completely different from the "immortality of the soul", i.e., when a person dies physically, the soul lives on. Cullmann makes the argument that the NT writers thought that when people die their death is complete--body and soul, p.38. The body and soul cannot be separated because people are whole beings, p. 33. And so those who are already physically dead are really in a state of dreamless sleep--not conscious mentally. At the "end" of time everyone will be resurrected--body and soul--all at once, "Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed," vs. 51-52 (RSV). See 15:42-58, pasted below.

Cullmann explains what appear to be contradictions regarding "resurrection of the dead" addressing the NT's treatment of realized and future eschatology, i.e., resurrection before and after physical death:

"Basically the whole contemporary theological discussion turns upon this question: Is 'Easter' the starting-point of the Christian Church, of its existence, life, and thought? If so, we are living in an interim time.

"In that case, the faith in resurrection of the New Testament becomes the cardinal point of all Christian belief. Accordingly, the fact that there is a resurrection body--Christ's body--defines the first Christians' whole interpretation of time. If Christ is the 'first-born from the dead,' then this means that the End-time is already present. But it also means that a temporal interval separates the First-born from all other men [and women] who are not yet 'born from the dead.' This means then that we live in an interim time, between Jesus' Resurrection, which has already taken place, and our own, which will not take place until the End. It also means, moreover, that the quickening Power, the Holy Spirit, is already at work among us. Therefore Paul designates the Holy Spirit by the same term 'aparche', first-fruits (Romans 8:23)--as he uses for Jesus himself (1 Corinthians 15:23), " etc., pp. 43-44.

Cullmann, in his Chapter IV, "Those who Sleep," 'The Holy Spirit and the Intermediate State of the Dead,' p. 48-49, writes:

"And now we come to the last question. When does this transformation of the
body take place? No doubt can remain on this point. The whole New
Testament answers, at the "End," and this is to be understood literally,
that is, in the temporal sense. That raises the question of the 'interim
condition' of the dead ... [snipped: see 2 Timothy 1:10, 1 Cor. 15:26,
Revelation 20:14]. That means, however, that the transformation of the body
does not occur immediately after each individual death. Here too we must
once again guard against any accommodation to Greek philosophy, if we wish
to understand the New Testament doctrine. This is the point where I cannot
accept Karl Barth's position as a simple restatement of the original
Christian view, not even his position in the 'Church Dogmatics'(2) where it
is subtly shaded and comes much nearer(3) to New Testament eschatology
than in his first writings.(4) Karl Barth considers it to be the New Testament
interpretation that the transformation of the body occurs for everyone
immediately after his physical death--as if the dead were no longer in time.
Nevertheless, according to the New Testament, they 'are' still in time.
Otherwise, the problem in 1 Thessalonians 4:13ff would have no meaning.
Here in fact Paul is concerned to show that at the moment of Christ's return
'those who are then alive will have no advantage' over those who have died
in Christ. Therefore the dead in Christ are still in time; they, too, are
'waiting.'" And so on.

* * * *
1 Corinthians 15:42-58:

15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it
is raised in incorruption: 15:43it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in
glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44it is sown a
natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body,
there is also a spiritual body. 15:45So also it is written, The first man
Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
15:46Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is
natural; then that which is spiritual. 15:47The first man is of the earth,
earthy: the second man is of heaven. 15:48As is the earthy, such are they
also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are
heavenly. 15:49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also
bear the image of the heavenly. 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh
and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit
incorruption. 15:51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but
we shall all be changed, 15:52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53For this corruptible must put
on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 15:54But when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put
on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is
swallowed up in victory. 15:55O death, where is thy victory? O death, where
is thy sting? 15:56The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the
law: 15:57but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord
Jesus Christ. 15:58Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast,
unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know
that your labor is not vain in the Lord. (ASV)

Vorkosigan

Great post, Clarice. You should stick around here.

Toto

Richard Carrier will be publishing a paper on this next year, which I predict will contain the definitive answer.

Until then, check the comments on third page of the thread on Richard Carrier's debate with Greg Licona and also his debate with William Lane Craig on PAX-TV

There is also a thread on Jewish Concepts of Resurrection which might throw some light on the subject.

Clarice O'C

According to Doherty, Paul's Jesus was spiritual, not physical. If so, the text must be talking about a spiritual resurrection.

Doherty writes:

"Piece No. 3: REVEALING THE SECRET OF CHRIST

Paul and other early writers speak of the divine Son of their faith entirely in terms of a spiritual, heavenly figure; they never identify this entity called "Christ Jesus" (literally, "Anointed Savior" or "Savior Messiah") as a man who had lived and died in recent history. Instead, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, God has revealed the existence of his Son and the role he has played in the divine plan for salvation. These early writers talk of long-hidden secrets being disclosed for the first time to apostles like Paul, with no mention of an historical Jesus who played any part in revealing himself, thus leaving no room for a human man at the beginning of the Christian movement. Paul makes it clear that his knowledge and message about the Christ is derived from scripture under God’s inspiration. [See "Part Two" and Supplementary Articles Nos. 1 and 6.]"
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

Chili

I think Paul meant that the physical death is our second death and that is when it all ends, including eternal life in the Thousand Year Reign.

"At the end of time" is where eternal life is found and we have no choice but to be raised on the other side of life where our temporal life once was extracted from. To make Genesis a living allegory we, as in each one of us, were created in the image of God and Eden is still present in our mind. It is because we consumed from our faculty of reason and became rational beings that we no longer have direct access to our sub-conscious mind that we either recognize or deny as our soul depending on how rational we have become -- and thus how far we have become estranged from Eden along the way.

The mystery of salvation is to have our divine God image reborn in us that we now recognize as such from where we get the courage and determination to crucify our human nature. We do this intuitly (outside of religion) that it may be raised in our sub-conscious mind to become fully God -- which is equal to God revealing himself to us in the Thousand Year Reign. That is how paradise is regained on this earth and it is just wrong to think that everything will fall into place after we die, at least as seen from this persepctive. [quote]

Cullmann explains what appear to be contradictions regarding "resurrection of the dead" addressing the NT's treatment of realized and future eschatology, i.e., resurrection before and after physical death:

"Basically the whole contemporary theological discussion turns upon this question: Is 'Easter' the starting-point of the Christian Church, of its existence, life, and thought? If so, we are living in an interim time.[/.quote]

Easter is the starting point of heaven on earth in the New Jerusalem where there are no temples to be found. Easter is therefore the end of Catholicism wherein there are no Christan's to be found for the same reason that there are no Catholics to be found in the New Jerusalem: only Christians with a redeemed kingship of their own. Nobody is born from the death but only that which is death to us while we are outside of Eden where we are in a state of oblivion can be reborn in us. This 'sleeper' to which we were dead is the firstborn reborn in us (now called Christ) at the End of time for the simple reason that that is the moment we are born into eternal life. That is what Purgatory is for. The transformation of the body is contingent upon the transformation of the mind into a singular and undivided mind. Those who have already died in the Lord will have a testament in force (Heb.9:16-17) and enjoy their riches in heaven now [Rev.14:13). To those -- and these are those already back in Eden (is heaven on earth) -- the second coming of Christ is not possible since they no longer exist in time.[quote]