Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-22-2010, 09:27 PM

As I was going over the resurrection scene in gJohn it suddenly occurred to me that the author of gJohn gave a description of the wrappings of his Jesus and there were two peices of wrappings.

This is the author of gJohn on the wrappings on his dead Jesus.
John 20.3-7

Quote:

3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.

4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.

5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.

6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,

7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

So there was a head piece that was found in a separate location to the linen clothes. There were two pieces of wrappings.

But, the shroud of Turin is a single piece of cloth with the image of what appears to be a fully body of a man with head.

Based on gJohn the shroud of Turin is fake.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

mountainman · 07-22-2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on gJohn the shroud of Turin is fake.

The scientific radio-carbon-fourteen dating between 1260 and 1390 CE is a more authoritative refutation of possible authenticity than the unprovenanced anonymous and undated gJohn. But I get your drift.

aa5874 · 07-22-2010, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on gJohn the shroud of Turin is fake.

The scientific radio-carbon-fourteen dating between 1260 and 1390 CE is a more authoritative refutation of possible authenticity than the unprovenanced anonymous and undated gJohn. But I get your drift.

The Church should have burnt and dumped the shroud of Turin once they read their own Canon.

Jesus was wearing a "two piece suit" in the tomb long before radio-carbon-14 dating was available.

The Pope might not agree with Science but he should at least believe John, the disciple which testifieth that these things are true.

Joh 21:24 -

Quote:

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

I think the Pope will burn the shroud now! Maybe he will burn John 20.7 instead.

Transient · 07-22-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The scientific radio-carbon-fourteen dating between 1260 and 1390 CE is a more authoritative refutation of possible authenticity than the unprovenanced anonymous and undated gJohn. But I get your drift.

The Church should have burnt and dumped the shroud of Turin once they read their own Canon.

Jesus was wearing a "two piece suit" in the tomb long before radio-carbon-14 dating was available.

The Pope might not agree with Science but he should at least believe John, the disciple which testifieth that these things are true.

Joh 21:24 -

Quote:

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

I think the Pope will burn the shroud now! Maybe he will burn John 20.7 instead.

The pope and his top dogs do not believe in the NT etc - the shroud etc is just good for business - and business is what christianity is all about

Huon · 07-23-2010, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on gJohn the shroud of Turin is fake.

Possible, but you have not considered two other hypotheses :
Based on the shroud of Turin, gJohn is fake.
The shroud of Turin and gJohn, both are fakes. :devil1:

Huon · 07-23-2010, 01:28 AM

The history of the Sudarium of Oviedo (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

… the Sudarium of Oviedo may very well be the actual cloth mentioned in the empty tomb scene of the Gospel of John, verse 20:7: "And the napkin, that was about his [Jesus'] head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself" (King James Version). That "napkin" or face cloth is, in the original Greek text, a "soudarion" (Latin "sudarium"). If the relic is authentic, as I (John Loken, careful reader) think it is, its existence today is nothing less than astounding.
<snip>
Guscin notes that the most important documentary source for the Sudarium's history from 614 onward is a 12th c. account by a Spanish bishop named Pelagius, who mentions blandly, and therefore rather credibly, that among the Christian relics kept in an ark (chest) at Oviedo since the 8th c. was "The Lord's Sudarium".

my bolding.
Then gJohn contains the truth. :devil1:

yalla · 07-23-2010, 03:51 AM

I can't be bothered to give the references cos I've done it before and now the wheel is invented I'm reluctant to do it again.

But...
The Jews of the first century did not bury their dead in a shroud or linen cloths.

That custom did not originate until the early second century c 120CE.
Until then Jews were buried in their best apparel.
It was a prominent Jewish leader, Rabban Gamaliel [the latter of 2 such], who popularized the custom of being buried in a simple humble linen cloth in the early second century and the custom become widespread and established after that.

Thus describing JC's burial cloths as is done in the gospels is an anachronism and strongly indicative early 2nd C as an appropriate date for the earliest possible time for the writing of both g"John" and g"Mark" [which also referes to a linen shroud].

The online Jewish Encyclopedia has reference to all this for those who wish to check.
See 'Gamaliel" and "shroud".

Toto · 07-23-2010, 08:05 AM

Why The First Gospel -- Mark -- is a Post 70 CE Work quoting a comment on vridar

Quote:

Jewish Encyclopedia [see headings]
1.Gamaliel
“Gamaliel insured the perpetuation of his memory by his order to be buried in simple linen garments, for the example which he thus set put an end to the heavy burial expenses which had come to be almost unbearable …(Ket. 8b).”

2.Mo’ed Katan
“It was not until after Rabban Gamaliel had been buried in simple linen garments that this custom became general.”

3.Shroud.
“This caused R. Gamaliel, about fifty years after the destruction of the Temple, to inaugurate the custom of using a simple linen shroud for rich and poor alike (M. Ḳ. 27b).”

Shroud on Jewish Encyc.

Quote:

The shroud is made of white linen cloth ("sadin," the σινδόν of the New Testament; see Matt. xxvii. 59), which is cut and sewed together with large stitches; the ends of the thread are left unknotted, the garment being intended to last only until the body has decayed. As a general rule, however, several garments are used instead of a single shroud; in the case of a man these are a cap (in the form of a miter), breeches, shirt, an over-garment somewhat similar to a surplice, and a girdle....

Prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the Jews were buried in the garments they were wont to wear during life. When the woman of Endor saw the prophet Samuel rise from the grave he was covered with a mantle (I Sam. xxviii. 14), the same he had worn when living (Lev. R. xxvi. 7). The poor, however, were probably swathed like Egyptian dead, as the term "takrikin" seems to indicate. Later the attire of the corpse became more elaborate. The rich grew very extravagant in this respect, securing fanciful and costly garments, and establishing a custom which became a burden upon mourners of the middle and poorer classes, who could ill endure the expense and yet desired to show the highest respect for their dead. This caused R. Gamaliel, about fifty years after the destruction of the Temple, to inaugurate the custom of using a simple linen shroud for rich and poor alike (M. Ḳ. 27b).

One who dies as a result of an act of violence, or in consequence of loss of blood, or a woman who dies in confinement, must be buried in the bloody garments worn at the time of death, and not in a shroud. This custom is based on the view that the last drops of blood, the loss of which is the immediate cause of death, are part of the body, and as such require burial; and since they can not be removed from the garments, these must go into the grave. ...

yalla · 07-23-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why The First Gospel -- Mark -- is a Post 70 CE Work quoting a comment on vridar

Quote:

Jewish Encyclopedia [see headings]
1.Gamaliel
“Gamaliel insured the perpetuation of his memory by his order to be buried in simple linen garments, for the example which he thus set put an end to the heavy burial expenses which had come to be almost unbearable …(Ket. 8b).”

2.Mo’ed Katan
“It was not until after Rabban Gamaliel had been buried in simple linen garments that this custom became general.”

3.Shroud.
“This caused R. Gamaliel, about fifty years after the destruction of the Temple, to inaugurate the custom of using a simple linen shroud for rich and poor alike (M. Ḳ. 27b).”

Shroud on Jewish Encyc.

Quote:

The shroud is made of white linen cloth ("sadin," the σινδόν of the New Testament; see Matt. xxvii. 59), which is cut and sewed together with large stitches; the ends of the thread are left unknotted, the garment being intended to last only until the body has decayed. As a general rule, however, several garments are used instead of a single shroud; in the case of a man these are a cap (in the form of a miter), breeches, shirt, an over-garment somewhat similar to a surplice, and a girdle....

Prior to the destruction of the Second Temple, the Jews were buried in the garments they were wont to wear during life. When the woman of Endor saw the prophet Samuel rise from the grave he was covered with a mantle (I Sam. xxviii. 14), the same he had worn when living (Lev. R. xxvi. 7). The poor, however, were probably swathed like Egyptian dead, as the term "takrikin" seems to indicate. Later the attire of the corpse became more elaborate. The rich grew very extravagant in this respect, securing fanciful and costly garments, and establishing a custom which became a burden upon mourners of the middle and poorer classes, who could ill endure the expense and yet desired to show the highest respect for their dead. This caused R. Gamaliel, about fifty years after the destruction of the Temple, to inaugurate the custom of using a simple linen shroud for rich and poor alike (M. Ḳ. 27b).

One who dies as a result of an act of violence, or in consequence of loss of blood, or a woman who dies in confinement, must be buried in the bloody garments worn at the time of death, and not in a shroud. This custom is based on the view that the last drops of blood, the loss of which is the immediate cause of death, are part of the body, and as such require burial; and since they can not be removed from the garments, these must go into the grave. ...

Interesting.
From your quote above:
"The rich grew very extravagant in this respect, securing fanciful and costly garments, and establishing a custom which became a burden upon mourners of the middle and poorer classes, who could ill endure the expense and yet desired to show the highest respect for their dead. This caused R. Gamaliel, about fifty years after the destruction of the Temple, to inaugurate the custom of using a simple linen shroud for rich and poor alike "

The italic section suggests that, despite the "probably" referring to being buried as the Egyptian dead, the poor were struggling to keep up with the rich and were not using shrouds.
The bold section suggests that Gamaliel's example also involved, circa 120CE, the poor using a shroud after that time thereby showing they were not previously which after all was why he inaugurated the new custom.

Some time ago we had a report here of a body found in a tomb dated by the archaeologists concerned to pre-temple destruction [although the newspaper report was not highly specific about how] which was buried in an apparently wealthy tomb but was wrapped in a shroud.
The body was of a victim of leprosy which may have been a factor.

darstec · 07-23-2010, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on gJohn the shroud of Turin is fake.

Possible, but you have not considered two other hypotheses :
Based on the shroud of Turin, gJohn is fake.
The shroud of Turin and gJohn, both are fakes. :devil1:

The shroud was known to be a fake when it first appeared. The artist actually confessed to making it.

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07-23-2010, 03:51 AM	#7
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	I can't be bothered to give the references cos I've done it before and now the wheel is invented I'm reluctant to do it again. But... The Jews of the first century did not bury their dead in a shroud or linen cloths. That custom did not originate until the early second century c 120CE. Until then Jews were buried in their best apparel. It was a prominent Jewish leader, Rabban Gamaliel [the latter of 2 such], who popularized the custom of being buried in a simple humble linen cloth in the early second century and the custom become widespread and established after that. Thus describing JC's burial cloths as is done in the gospels is an anachronism and strongly indicative early 2nd C as an appropriate date for the earliest possible time for the writing of both g"John" and g"Mark" [which also referes to a linen shroud]. The online Jewish Encyclopedia has reference to all this for those who wish to check. See 'Gamaliel" and "shroud".

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