Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 08-20-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Usually I'm an MJ kind of person. But in perusing the kata sarka's of this world I found something that looks rather HJ. So I thought I would share:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rom 9:1-5 (NKJV)

1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

This may actually be one of the strongest passages for an HJ, way better than the seed of David and from woman born. In 3 Paul uses "according to the flesh" in something that looks almost "natural:" the Israelites who are his countrymen according to the flesh, i.e. by descent. Then in 5 he seems to say that Christ came from the Israelites. For those who know Greek much better than I do, it says "ÎµÎ¾ Ï‰Î½ Î¿ Ï‡ÏÎ¹ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï‚ Ï„Î¿ ÎºÎ±Ï„Î± ÏƒÎ±ÏÎºÎ±." Am I right in thinking that ÎºÎ±Ï„Î± ÏƒÎ±ÏÎºÎ± modifies Î¿ Ï‡ÏÎ¹ÏƒÏ„Î¿Ï‚? If so, we have a kata sarka Christ who came from the Israelites, not, as the NKJV suggests, a Christ who came from the Israelites in a kata sarka fashion. That the kata sarka Christ came from the Israelites can of course be seen in an HJ fashion, but it can, I think, also mean that the idea (of a Christ who was more fleshly than his daddy) sprang up in their midst.

Gerard Stafleu

Only eyewitness accounts, archaelogical findings or credible extra-biblical non-apologetic accounts can bolster the HJ position. Jesus was presented as a god-man by the NT and the Church Fathers. In essence, no HJ can be derived from the the sriptures, this must be derived externally.

Gooch's dad · 08-20-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Only eyewitness accounts, archaelogical findings or credible extra-biblical non-apologetic accounts can bolster the HJ position.

Sez you. From where do you pull this completely random and ad hoc standard for determining a rather ordinary fact such as "the man Jesus existed"?

I keep pointing out that MJ'ers demand eyewitnesses, and other MJ'ers claim that they don't actually demand this. Then a post like the above pops up.

The early Christian writings DO provide positive evidence of an HJ, like it or not.

Oh, and Earl, once you run that "revisiting kata sarka" claim through some peer review at a reputable historical journal, then you might have a case. <edit>

EarlDoherty · 08-20-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooch'sDad

Oh, and Earl, once you run that "revisiting kata sarka" claim through some peer review at a reputable historical journal, then you might have a case.

And what is your definition of a "respectable historical journal"? What if I tried it out on The Journal of Higher Criticism (edited by Robert Price, formerly published at Drew University)? Would that satisfy you?

And are you or any other poster on this board unable to make some evaluation of it on your own? The way you and others dump in knee-jerk fashion on anything that comes out of a JMer's mouth would suggest that you consider yourselves capable of doing so.

Earl Doherty

Toto · 08-20-2007, 04:31 PM

This digression is being split and locked as off topic. If you think you have anything more productive to say that will not lead to a flame war, PM me to open it.

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08-20-2007, 04:31 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This digression is being split and locked as off topic. If you think you have anything more productive to say that will not lead to a flame war, PM me to open it.

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