adf1972

On a Catholic apologetics board I follow, someone recently made the claim that most Jews who lived at the time of Jesus (assuming Jesus actually lived) ended up converting to Christianity:

The person who quoted this figure gave no cite for her sources, so I have no idea where it comes from. So I'm wondering #1 if her claim is true, which I suspect it's not, and #2 if there are reliable sources to bolster the claim either way that most Jews converted or not.

Anyone know where I could start looking?

motorhead

I'm assuming this person means Jews converted to Christianity after Jesus had died. Like in the years immediately after he died. Is this correct?

If so, it's my understanding we have no stats on this. It's a good question, and speculation is the #'s were low. It's important to remember that Christianity started out as an apocalyptic movement within Judaism. The Jerusalem disciples continued as law following Jews after Jesus died. They preached the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God, to be ushered in by Jesus. I'm sure they gained some converts to their movement from the Jews but how many is not known.

By the way, if the person means Jews converted to Christianity while Jesus was alive, the religion of Christianity wasn't born until after Jesus died. It was started (in rough form) by his disciples after he died. These rough form ideas were then expanded upon by Hellenistic Jews, the taken further by Paul and from there Chrisianity as we know it today was born.

penumbra

I don't know where those figures come from, but the claim that conversion to Xianity was the reason utterly ignores the history of Roman and Xian persecution of Jews.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm

Conversion cut the population? Heck, they were getting killed right and left.

adf1972

That's interesting, this person is an anti-semite, and one of the reasons is that she claims Jews mercilessly persecuted and slaughtered the early Christians (just as the Romans did). She's never put forth evidence for that, though, either.

adf1972

Yes.

This person is a firm believer in Christianity, so she believes Jesus was the Son of God, Messiah, etc. As far as she's concerned, Christianity started with Jesus.

penumbra

I'm sure some jews did persecute xian's, it usually works both ways. Of course to use that as an excuse for being anti-semtic almost 2000 years later is..... well...

And, regarding conversions, is she aware that many so-called "conversions" down thru the years have been accomplished by threat of death, with full backing of the church?

Alethias

Moving this to the Biblical Criticism & History Forum. I think you might be more likely to get answers there.

gregor

Anyone have Rodney Stark's book handy, as it might have estimates?

adf1972

The way she sees it, the Jews were at fault first. If they hadn't persecuted Christians, cultivated hatred for Christians, tried to tear down churches, and tried to cheat Christians with usurious lending practices, then the Christians & the Church would have left the Jews alone. Basically, she blames Jews for bringing expulsions, conversion drives, and pogroms upon themselves all through history.

She claims that's a lie, that no Jew was ever threatened with the choice of conversion or death. She does blame those Jews who outwardly converted but continued to practice secret Judaism for being deceptive, however. That's why Jews had to be expelled from Spain in 1492, she claims -- because these lying crypto-Jews were cheating and angering the Christian populace. The expulsion was for the Jews' own good, as it protected them from the wrath and revenge of the Christian hoi polloi. I'm telling you, the lady's a dyed-in-the-wool antisemite.

Now, she claims to have "discovered" all of this through her reading, but I'm not sure what books she's reading (she doesn't cite sources). I would like to find facts and figures that refute her claims, though, as I'm sure some of them are completely bogus. And unfortunately, some of the people on this board seem to be finding her slams against Jews and Judaism convincing (nobody is arguing for the other side). I doubt that posting opposing evidence would ever convince the lady herself that she's wrong about Jews, but maybe it would persuade some lurkers, who knows.

andrewcriddle

I'm not an expert here but the figure of 4.5 million in the early 1st century CE seems rather high, (If it means Jews in the Roman Empire, total Jews would obviously be higher), and the figure of 1.2 million in the 6th century seems surprisingly low.

Before discussing causes for changes in Jewish numbers it would be helpful to have firm evidence of what the numbers actually were.

Andrew Criddle