Freethought & Rationalism Archive

countjulian · 02-11-2006, 05:29 PM

In the Quran, Surah Al-Araf (#7) verse 124, the pharoah of Moses (just as ambiguous as his Biblical counterpart) says to the Jews and his unfaithful sorcerers (who had just betrayed him by worshipping Allah):

Quote:

I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together.

River recently PMed me with this link, saying the Egyptians did used crucifixion as a punishment http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...crucify.html#3 .

In it, the Muslims apologist slighly attempts to conflate impalement with crucifixion, and then goes on to prove that the Egyptians used impalment as a punishement. This is utterly disingenuous. Just for the record, who was the first to use crucifixion, the Persians? The Greeks? Who, who, who?

FatherMithras · 02-11-2006, 07:18 PM

The Carthiginians.

countjulian · 02-11-2006, 09:31 PM

Really? When?

River · 02-12-2006, 02:18 AM

If a person is impaled and then suspended or mounted on a wall of some sort

or a tree

would that still qualify as a Crucifixion? Perhaps a very primitive form

of crucifixion?

River · 02-12-2006, 02:19 AM

Perhaps the arabic word for "crucify" is itself broader in scope encompassing a wide different assortment of torture methods?

Does anyone know.

Most of the HIEROGLYPHS seem to portray a sequence of mutilations following a final "impalement".

This seems to parallel the Qur'ans :I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together

The crucifixions mentioned in the Bible does NOT seem to have these accessory mutilations found in the HIEROGLYPHICS and the

Qur'anic account.

compare with:

He took an oath on pain of being beaten, of having his nose and ears cut off, and of being impaled... [Abbot Papyrus]

And

may I be mutilated in nose and ears and placed on the stake [Papyrus BM10052]

It seems that the Qur'an has captured the historical essense of these torture rituals...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...crucify.html#3

grendelfreak · 02-12-2006, 02:43 AM

Although it does not have a date for the first crucifixion, the wikipedia link given does state that Assyria, Egypt and Persia among others did use Crucifixion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifi...of_crucifixion

But I have not looked at the evidence so I can't give you any more than the link.

River · 02-12-2006, 07:54 PM

I would imagine that crucifixions would be used even earlier in human civilisation...perhaps by the Akkadians and the Sumerians.

It seems like a rather simple straightforward, non-intuitive method of torture.

Mabus_Zero · 02-12-2006, 08:30 PM

I never knew this, I thought the romans invented crucifixion. Though, it's quite likely that it was a simpler model before the romans started doing it. The romans always had the habit of absorbing the best of things from conquered peoples, and making improvements.

This also reminds me of unfounded assertions that the symbols of Judaism and Christianity are all imitations of Egyptian Sun-Worship.

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02-11-2006, 07:18 PM	#2
FatherMithras Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 3,890	The Carthiginians.

02-11-2006, 09:31 PM	#3
countjulian Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the torture chambers of Pinochet's Chile Posts: 2,112	Really? When?

02-12-2006, 02:18 AM	#4
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	If a person is impaled and then suspended or mounted on a wall of some sort or a tree would that still qualify as a Crucifixion? Perhaps a very primitive form of crucifixion?

02-12-2006, 02:19 AM	#5
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Perhaps the arabic word for "crucify" is itself broader in scope encompassing a wide different assortment of torture methods? Does anyone know. Most of the HIEROGLYPHS seem to portray a sequence of mutilations following a final "impalement". This seems to parallel the Qur'ans :I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together The crucifixions mentioned in the Bible does NOT seem to have these accessory mutilations found in the HIEROGLYPHICS and the Qur'anic account. compare with: He took an oath on pain of being beaten, of having his nose and ears cut off, and of being impaled... [Abbot Papyrus] And may I be mutilated in nose and ears and placed on the stake [Papyrus BM10052] It seems that the Qur'an has captured the historical essense of these torture rituals... http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...crucify.html#3

02-12-2006, 02:43 AM	#6
grendelfreak Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Where people have scars on their shoulders Posts: 744	Although it does not have a date for the first crucifixion, the wikipedia link given does state that Assyria, Egypt and Persia among others did use Crucifixion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifi...of_crucifixion But I have not looked at the evidence so I can't give you any more than the link.

02-12-2006, 07:54 PM	#7
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	I would imagine that crucifixions would be used even earlier in human civilisation...perhaps by the Akkadians and the Sumerians. It seems like a rather simple straightforward, non-intuitive method of torture.

02-12-2006, 08:30 PM	#8
Mabus_Zero Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: California Posts: 190	I never knew this, I thought the romans invented crucifixion. Though, it's quite likely that it was a simpler model before the romans started doing it. The romans always had the habit of absorbing the best of things from conquered peoples, and making improvements. This also reminds me of unfounded assertions that the symbols of Judaism and Christianity are all imitations of Egyptian Sun-Worship.

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