Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 11-13-2010, 05:52 PM

Hi All,

People might find this short blog of interest:

I thought the illustration for it was going to take five minutes and it ended up taking about five hours due to my old Word 2003 and Paint programs being mean to me. Here's the illustration for it:

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Elijah · 11-13-2010, 09:34 PM

Personifying God’s Word or Logos is just personifying or embodying reason. Here is Justin talking about Logos being embodied/used by Socrates to enlighten the world. That is if you don’t understand demons superstitiously which almost everyone does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin first apology

And when Socrates endeavoured, by true reason and examination, to bring these things to light, and deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, by means of men who rejoiced in iniquity, compassed his death, as an atheist and a profane person, on the charge that he was introducing new divinities; and in our case they display a similar activity. For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ; and in obedience to Him, we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.

The source of reason and truth was seen as a real spiritual element in the universe that provided order and could be interacted/aligned with via the intellect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen Celsus

And yet let those who make this charge understand that He whom we regard and believe to have been from the beginning God, and the Son of God, is the very Logos, and the very Wisdom, and the very Truth; and with respect to His mortal body, and the human soul which it contained, we assert that not by their communion merely with Him, but by their unity and intermixture, they received the highest powers, and after participating in His divinity, were changed into God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen Celsus

“Light for yourselves the light of knowledge. John also, who lived after him, said, That which was in the Logos was life, and the life was the light of men; which true light lightens every man that comes into the world (i.e., the true world, which is perceived by the understanding ), and makes him a light of the world:”

You can’t think of what is being embodied in anthropomorphic/superstitious ways but as the source of the ideas and the reason we utilize to realize those ideas. If you fully embody reason then you would be the full embodiment of the “word of god” or “son of god” or “image of god” which they say Jesus as doing and other philosophers as being flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen on John

And after the same fashion He is also called the Logos, because He takes away from us all that is irrational, and makes us truly reasonable, so that we do all things, even to eating and drinking, to the glory of God, and discharge by the Logos to the glory of God both the commoner functions of life and those which belong to a more advanced stage. For if, by having part in Him, we are raised up and enlightened, herded also it may be and ruled over, then it is clear that we become in a divine manner reasonable, when He drives away from us what in us is irrational and dead, since He is the Logos (reason) and the Resurrection. Consider, however, whether all men have in some way part in Him in His character as Logos.
……
But the Logos in man, in which we have said that our whole race had part, is spoken of in two senses; first, in that of the filling up of ideas which takes place, prodigies excepted, in every one who passes beyond the age of boyhood,

bacht · 11-15-2010, 08:42 AM

I don't think anyone would deny that the Logos concept, via Philo and middle Platonism, had some kind of influence on pre-Constantinian Christianity. The power of the Word of God is clearly stated in Genesis 1, which echoes other ANE myths about dieties who speak things into existence. Personified Wisdom/Sophia was celebrated in Proverbs, and may have been the original Jewish Logos (of course with a sex change along the way). Ultimately we get the Demiurge, the "hidden" diety who cares about humanity vs the creator who is indifferent or hostile.

The Jewish roots of the Son go back to El and Yahweh, thence through the royal adoption of kings by God, then into symbolism such as Isaiah's suffering Servant. The original son of God was Adam who, along with other pre-Abraham figures, was a focus of gnostic speculation. Angels were called sons of God, another avenue of speculation has Jesus as some kind of angel.

aa5874 · 11-15-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

I don't think anyone would deny that the Logos concept, via Philo and middle Platonism, had some kind of influence on pre-Constantinian Christianity. The power of the Word of God is clearly stated in Genesis 1, which echoes other ANE myths about dieties who speak things into existence. Personified Wisdom/Sophia was celebrated in Proverbs, and may have been the original Jewish Logos (of course with a sex change along the way). Ultimately we get the Demiurge, the "hidden" diety who cares about humanity vs the creator who is indifferent or hostile.

The Jewish roots of the Son go back to El and Yahweh, thence through the royal adoption of kings by God, then into symbolism such as Isaiah's suffering Servant. The original son of God was Adam who, along with other pre-Abraham figures, was a focus of gnostic speculation. Angels were called sons of God, another avenue of speculation has Jesus as some kind of angel.

But, the book of Job implies that God has some kind of sons which includes Satan.

Job 1:6 -

Quote:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 -

Quote:

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

This would IMPLY God was considered to have MULTIPLE sons.

mountainman · 11-16-2010, 06:35 AM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

I like your blog site and think its a great way to explore and share ideas. I liked the pics of the rural areas, and found your articles of interest to read. I hope you keep adding to that site.

Regarding the matter of christianity beginning with Two Gods - the Father and the Son .... you may be aware that there was a great deal of public opinion during the 4th century that in fact the father and son were two gods. So much public opinion in fact, that the records of the Orthodox Church Councils disclose that the orthodox Bishops had to anathemetize that specific notion.

See for example Hilary of Poitiers's De Synodis ---- presents a list of 27 issues that are recorded concerning the public opinion c.351 CE, extracted from the 27 anathemas recorded at the Council of Sirmium, as declared by Hilary, to be a copy of the creed composed at Sirmium.

Of the Public Opinions Prevalent at that time requiring ANATHEMA, the First Two are as follows, and you will recognise the second as the idea that in fact there are two gods ...

Notions to be anathetized c.351 CE

01: The Son is sprung from things non-existent,
or from another substance and not from God,
and that there was a time or age
when He was not.

02: The Father and the Son are two Gods.

...[...]... but also see .....

22: Saying that the Father and the Son
and the Holy Spirit are three Gods.

I wonder what these bishops were really talking about c.351 CE? One thing we can be sure of is the testimony of Ammianus Marcellinus, that the highways were covered with these galloping bishops. Anathemetizing was apparently important business then.

The problem is they were anathemtizing those who said there were two (or three) gods. I guess it must have been some form of Q&A within the church and the public. So maybe they were really covering over the beginnings of christianity - with two gods - as you describe them in this article?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

People might find this short blog of interest:

I thought the illustration for it was going to take five minutes and it ended up taking about five hours due to my old Word 2003 and Paint programs being mean to me. Here's the illustration for it:

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Chili · 11-16-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

People might find this short blog of interest:

I thought the illustration for it was going to take five minutes and it ended up taking about five hours due to my old Word 2003 and Paint programs being mean to me. Here's the illustration for it:

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Hi Jay, the fall of man was first conceived to exist when God separated the light from the darkness which happens only in the conscious mind and it was therefore that evening followed (evening 'was' is wrong in that darkess is an illusion in the same way as the light of common day is an illusion or the created light that 'was' could not be real).

So a translation that said 'evening was' is wrong in not grasping the fact that the division between light and darkness exists only on our conscious mind wherefore then in the New Jerusalem, or in the state of enlightenment, darknes is a thing of the past (Gen.22:5).

For light 'to be' (to on) as in it 'was', it must have 'being' or substance

if you wish, so it can mulitply and be many (ta onta) wherefore in the light of common day death is also part of the promise made.

Chili · 11-16-2010, 08:33 PM

Sorry I did not write this to disagree with you and had to run, but the father is not the father until he has a son in being and being now has form made out of dust, of which the essence is retained and therefore called womb of God that is made manifest by the Word that so has presence in God. The womb of God has come to be known as woman (not female) but is the essence of God retained in DNA (or TOL) to which Joseph was betrothed here in 'divine union' and so be the son of the father.

The woman is and always will be without an identity of her own in that she is the 'material data sheet' of man and so really is the beauty of truth and the love of life itself. The woman so really is wherein we have communion with God and by way of metaphor is the wine that Jesus made.

Chili · 11-17-2010, 09:17 AM

. . . but also is the wratch of God poured [full strength] in the cup of his anger (Rev.14:10).

Now the transformation of water into wine is by way of exposure of the heart of woman as the heart of Christ as they are equal (and we have an icon on that to justify those galloping bishops with their anathema mandate).

The reason why the woman is essential in this exposition is that until Christ is born [in us] we are estranged from God as lone sojourner in a foreign land that may be called the TOK where we are driven by the woman aloof as per Gen.3 where she strikes at our heel via the temple tramp, also known as Eve, who is the maiden that we 'married' and who so took up residence in the TOK to create this comforting hero attidude that we so love the embellish (in her honor as negative stand in each and every encounter = a vivid Eve makes for an exciting life).

So then while we are abroad the 'harvest' is retained in the TOL (Gen.3:6), from where she knows exactly what to 'feed' the temporal lobe (tabula rasa) to go further West (or get lost), via Eve of course, who later herself will be left stranded in the dark (oops), already at the Cana event where the TOL is exposed as the life-blood and internal drive of the son of man as represented in Luke by Jesus, in proxy, as insurrectionist to be crucified later. IOW, Jesus is not the son of man, nor God, but the redeemer of the son of man = "he must increase while I decrease," later seen as an achiever of the way and an example for us to follow as NT Catholics.

I hope this is still all proper English, but to see the woman aloof as the connection between father and son is not easy but in any event it is via the woman that the father and son have continuity and Jesus is just but no less than the prime mover of this uncovery.

11-13-2010, 05:52 PM	#1
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	Christianity Begins with Two Gods: The Father and the Son Hi All, People might find this short blog of interest: I thought the illustration for it was going to take five minutes and it ended up taking about five hours due to my old Word 2003 and Paint programs being mean to me. Here's the illustration for it: Warmly, Philosopher Jay

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11-15-2010, 08:42 AM	#3
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	I don't think anyone would deny that the Logos concept, via Philo and middle Platonism, had some kind of influence on pre-Constantinian Christianity. The power of the Word of God is clearly stated in Genesis 1, which echoes other ANE myths about dieties who speak things into existence. Personified Wisdom/Sophia was celebrated in Proverbs, and may have been the original Jewish Logos (of course with a sex change along the way). Ultimately we get the Demiurge, the "hidden" diety who cares about humanity vs the creator who is indifferent or hostile. The Jewish roots of the Son go back to El and Yahweh, thence through the royal adoption of kings by God, then into symbolism such as Isaiah's suffering Servant. The original son of God was Adam who, along with other pre-Abraham figures, was a focus of gnostic speculation. Angels were called sons of God, another avenue of speculation has Jesus as some kind of angel.

11-16-2010, 08:33 PM	#7
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Sorry I did not write this to disagree with you and had to run, but the father is not the father until he has a son in being and being now has form made out of dust, of which the essence is retained and therefore called womb of God that is made manifest by the Word that so has presence in God. The womb of God has come to be known as woman (not female) but is the essence of God retained in DNA (or TOL) to which Joseph was betrothed here in 'divine union' and so be the son of the father. The woman is and always will be without an identity of her own in that she is the 'material data sheet' of man and so really is the beauty of truth and the love of life itself. The woman so really is wherein we have communion with God and by way of metaphor is the wine that Jesus made.

11-17-2010, 09:17 AM	#8
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	. . . but also is the wratch of God poured [full strength] in the cup of his anger (Rev.14:10). Now the transformation of water into wine is by way of exposure of the heart of woman as the heart of Christ as they are equal (and we have an icon on that to justify those galloping bishops with their anathema mandate). The reason why the woman is essential in this exposition is that until Christ is born [in us] we are estranged from God as lone sojourner in a foreign land that may be called the TOK where we are driven by the woman aloof as per Gen.3 where she strikes at our heel via the temple tramp, also known as Eve, who is the maiden that we 'married' and who so took up residence in the TOK to create this comforting hero attidude that we so love the embellish (in her honor as negative stand in each and every encounter = a vivid Eve makes for an exciting life). So then while we are abroad the 'harvest' is retained in the TOL (Gen.3:6), from where she knows exactly what to 'feed' the temporal lobe (tabula rasa) to go further West (or get lost), via Eve of course, who later herself will be left stranded in the dark (oops), already at the Cana event where the TOL is exposed as the life-blood and internal drive of the son of man as represented in Luke by Jesus, in proxy, as insurrectionist to be crucified later. IOW, Jesus is not the son of man, nor God, but the redeemer of the son of man = "he must increase while I decrease," later seen as an achiever of the way and an example for us to follow as NT Catholics. I hope this is still all proper English, but to see the woman aloof as the connection between father and son is not easy but in any event it is via the woman that the father and son have continuity and Jesus is just but no less than the prime mover of this uncovery.

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