Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-01-2012, 08:26 PM

I think St. Paul and St Mark were one and the same person. This is why the Marcionite NT had an Epistle to the Alexandria. At the very least I can provide a tenth century witness to the Marcionite understanding of Paul's mission to Alexandria:

Quote:

Cette conduite de la Providence se vérifia également à l'égard des habitants de la province d'Égypte, car, si dès le principe ils ne se convertirent pas à la foi en l'entendant prêcher au milieu d'eux, c'est parce que l'Esprit-Saint ne permit pas alors qu'ils se soumissent à la prédication des autres disciples, avant que saint Marc, qui était originaire de ce pays, ne l'eût reçu comme un lot héréditaire et comme une terre réservée à sa mission. Avant lui, il est vrai, l'apôtre saint Paul avait paru dans Alexandrie , où il avait prêché la foi nouvelle, mais personne n'avait consenti à l'embrasser; au contraire, les infidèles l'ayant attaché à une colonne se mirent à le maltraiter, jusqu'au moment où, par la volonté de Dieu (soit-il loué!), la colonne, s'entr ouvrant , reçut dans sa masse le corps du saint Apôtre, en sorte qu'il disparut à leurs yeux et qu'on ne le vit plus. Il en fut de même de saint Pierre, le prince des disciples de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, car, étant venu dans la ville d'Alexandrie pour y prêcher, il ne convertit personne, si ce n'est le fils de Festus, qui, plus tard, périt dans la mer (1) : nous voulons parler de Clément, disciple du même saint Pierre.

This conduct of Providence is also checked against the inhabitants of the province of Egypt, as if from the beginning they did not convert to the faith by hearing preaching in their midst, it is because that the Holy Spirit did not permit then they should submit to the preaching of the other disciples, before St. Mark, who was originally from this country, had not received a lot as a hereditary and reserved land to its mission. Before him, it is true, the Apostle Paul had appeared in Alexandria, where he had preached the new faith, but nobody had consented to embrace the contrary, the infidels have attached to the column began to mistreat him, until, by the will of God (be He praised!), column, entry is open, received him into her body mass of the holy Apostle, so he vanished from their eyes and we saw him no more. It was the same of St. Peter, Prince of the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, because, having arrived in the city of Alexandria to preach, it does not convert anyone, except the son of Festus, who later perished in the sea (1): we speak of Clement, a disciple of that St. Peter.

We should all convince Roger Pearse to get his friend Imad Boles to translate the original Arabic. This is a fascinating document much more interesting than the Acts of Mark being translated by Rene Salm (at least I think so).

outhouse · 03-01-2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

I think St. Paul and St Mark were one and the same person

really?? <edit>

stephan huller · 03-01-2012, 10:31 PM

The alternative to developing theories such as this is (a) to take Acts as an authoritative account of the beginnings of the Church (b) that there was some alternative view of the development of the Church but we will never know it because it is lost or (c) give up and become a heckler at an internet forum. I chose (b) but continue to try and make sense of the Marcionite tradition.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-01-2012, 11:00 PM

Do you read Koine, Stephan?

stephan huller · 03-01-2012, 11:21 PM

I muddle my way through

maryhelena · 03-01-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I think St. Paul and St Mark were one and the same person.

And St Mark is? Marcus Julius Agrippa -

Stephan, we are both on different paths but methinks our goal might well be the same - Agrippa (II)....

Quote:

This is why the Marcionite NT had an Epistle to the Alexandria. At the very least I can provide a tenth century witness to the Marcionite understanding of Paul's mission to Alexandria:

Quote:

Cette conduite de la Providence se vérifia également à l'égard des habitants de la province d'Égypte, car, si dès le principe ils ne se convertirent pas à la foi en l'entendant prêcher au milieu d'eux, c'est parce que l'Esprit-Saint ne permit pas alors qu'ils se soumissent à la prédication des autres disciples, avant que saint Marc, qui était originaire de ce pays, ne l'eût reçu comme un lot héréditaire et comme une terre réservée à sa mission. Avant lui, il est vrai, l'apôtre saint Paul avait paru dans Alexandrie , où il avait prêché la foi nouvelle, mais personne n'avait consenti à l'embrasser; au contraire, les infidèles l'ayant attaché à une colonne se mirent à le maltraiter, jusqu'au moment où, par la volonté de Dieu (soit-il loué!), la colonne, s'entr ouvrant , reçut dans sa masse le corps du saint Apôtre, en sorte qu'il disparut à leurs yeux et qu'on ne le vit plus. Il en fut de même de saint Pierre, le prince des disciples de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, car, étant venu dans la ville d'Alexandrie pour y prêcher, il ne convertit personne, si ce n'est le fils de Festus, qui, plus tard, périt dans la mer (1) : nous voulons parler de Clément, disciple du même saint Pierre.

This conduct of Providence is also checked against the inhabitants of the province of Egypt, as if from the beginning they did not convert to the faith by hearing preaching in their midst, it is because that the Holy Spirit did not permit then they should submit to the preaching of the other disciples, before St. Mark, who was originally from this country, had not received a lot as a hereditary and reserved land to its mission. Before him, it is true, the Apostle Paul had appeared in Alexandria, where he had preached the new faith, but nobody had consented to embrace the contrary, the infidels have attached to the column began to mistreat him, until, by the will of God (be He praised!), column, entry is open, received him into her body mass of the holy Apostle, so he vanished from their eyes and we saw him no more. It was the same of St. Peter, Prince of the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, because, having arrived in the city of Alexandria to preach, it does not convert anyone, except the son of Festus, who later perished in the sea (1): we speak of Clement, a disciple of that St. Peter.

We should all convince Roger Pearse to get his friend Imad Boles to translate the original Arabic. This is a fascinating document much more interesting than the Acts of Mark being translated by Rene Salm (at least I think so).

stephan huller · 03-01-2012, 11:43 PM

I'm just starting with marcionitism for now

Toto · 03-02-2012, 12:01 AM

Avant lui, il est vrai, l'apôtre saint Paul avait paru dans Alexandrie , où il avait prêché la foi nouvelle, mais personne n'avait consenti à l'embrasser; au contraire, les infidèles l'ayant attaché à une colonne se mirent à le maltraiter, jusqu'au moment où, par la volonté de Dieu (soit-il loué!), la colonne, s'entrouvrant , reçut dans sa masse le corps du saint Apôtre, en sorte qu'il disparut à leurs yeux et qu'on ne le vit plus.

I tried to clean this up a bit:
Before him, it is true, the Apostle Paul had appeared in Alexandria, where he had preached the new faith, but nobody had embraced it; on the contrary, the infidels tied him to a column (cross?) and began to mistreat him, until, by the will of God (PBUH), the cross ???? the body of the holy Apostle, so he vanished from their eyes and we saw him no more.

Is this saying that the Alexandrians tried to crucify Paul (and Peter)?

maryhelena · 03-02-2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The alternative to developing theories such as this is (a) to take Acts as an authoritative account of the beginnings of the Church (b) that there was some alternative view of the development of the Church but we will never know it because it is lost or (c) give up and become a heckler at an internet forum. I chose (b) but continue to try and make sense of the Marcionite tradition.

And that's when things can get interesting - ditch Acts as a historically viable account of early christian origins - which requires that one ditch it's story-line of 'Paul' being a follow-on from the non-historical JC gospel story. Which means that other avenues, historical avenues, have to be considered in searching for early christian origins.

Quote:

The Mystery of Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk) Richard Pervo

Page 5

One cannot write the story of Christian origins by giving Acts a makeover. If the story cannot be recovered, it is better to acknowledge ignorance than to build a house upon sand. Besides, Acts is not directly interested in the story of Christian origins. Its purpose is to show the legitimacy of the gentile mission associated with Paul.

Roger Pearse · 03-02-2012, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

... At the very least I can provide a tenth century witness to the Marcionite understanding of Paul's mission to Alexandria: ... We should all convince Roger Pearse to get his friend Imad Boles to translate the original Arabic. This is a fascinating document ...

Which writing are we looking at here? If this is the "History of the Patriarchs of the Coptic Church of Alexandria", it is already translated and even online.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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03-01-2012, 10:31 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The alternative to developing theories such as this is (a) to take Acts as an authoritative account of the beginnings of the Church (b) that there was some alternative view of the development of the Church but we will never know it because it is lost or (c) give up and become a heckler at an internet forum. I chose (b) but continue to try and make sense of the Marcionite tradition.

03-01-2012, 11:00 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Do you read Koine, Stephan?

03-01-2012, 11:21 PM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I muddle my way through

03-01-2012, 11:43 PM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I'm just starting with marcionitism for now

03-02-2012, 12:01 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Avant lui, il est vrai, l'apôtre saint Paul avait paru dans Alexandrie , où il avait prêché la foi nouvelle, mais personne n'avait consenti à l'embrasser; au contraire, les infidèles l'ayant attaché à une colonne se mirent à le maltraiter, jusqu'au moment où, par la volonté de Dieu (soit-il loué!), la colonne, s'entrouvrant , reçut dans sa masse le corps du saint Apôtre, en sorte qu'il disparut à leurs yeux et qu'on ne le vit plus. I tried to clean this up a bit: Before him, it is true, the Apostle Paul had appeared in Alexandria, where he had preached the new faith, but nobody had embraced it; on the contrary, the infidels tied him to a column (cross?) and began to mistreat him, until, by the will of God (PBUH), the cross ???? the body of the holy Apostle, so he vanished from their eyes and we saw him no more. Is this saying that the Alexandrians tried to crucify Paul (and Peter)?

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