FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-16-2012, 07:18 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 49
Default Reputable sources on Jesus contemporaries/precedents?

Someone shot an email to me mentioning about a supposed ten or so figures which match up with Jesus story including Horus, Zoroaster, etc.

I was wondering if there were any recommended/scholarly sources on these figures so I could do a bit more research? I have heard the name Archaya S. before but I don't know how credible that source is and I would prefer to be able to find more than 1 or 2 people talking about these things. It isn't that I don't think it could be true but I want to make sure that I actually look into it first.
shalak is offline  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:50 AM   #2
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
.... a supposed ten or so figures which match up with Jesus story including Horus, Zoroaster, etc.
For some ideas, have a look through CHAPTER FOUR of Jesus Potter Harry Christ: Going Pagan: The Forgotten Prefigures of Christ which covers Gilgamesh, Dionysus, Pythagoras, Orpheus, Asclepius, Osiris, Tammuz (Adonis), Attis and Mithras.

Quote:
This is not to say that Jesus is just the same as or identical to other figures of mythology; indeed, Jesus would be something entirely new simply by virtue of his being an assimilation of the best features of each. Jesus is the culmination and combination of all other religious traditions of his time: while Orphism had both the human prophet (Orpheus) and the divine god (Dionysus), in two separate stories, Jesus became both human and divine – prophet and god – in a mysterious, impossible Truth that was beyond all sense or logic. Without any attempt to make the story coherent, Jesus was given every feature, every power, every moving anecdote, parable and saying found in rival literature.
You might also want to have a look at what we know about Apollonius of Tyana, the Pythagorean author and ex-priest of Asclepius, who loomed large in the 1st century Graeco-Roman world.
mountainman is offline  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:06 PM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 49
Default

Much appreciated, thank you.
shalak is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 07:20 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
Someone shot an email to me mentioning about a supposed ten or so figures which match up with Jesus story including Horus, Zoroaster, etc.

I was wondering if there were any recommended/scholarly sources on these figures so I could do a bit more research? I have heard the name Archaya S. before but I don't know how credible that source is and I would prefer to be able to find more than 1 or 2 people talking about these things. It isn't that I don't think it could be true but I want to make sure that I actually look into it first.
I think that Justin Martyr might be the best source for pagan parallels to the Jesus story?

Why would he lie?
dog-on is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 07:34 AM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
Someone shot an email to me mentioning about a supposed ten or so figures which match up with Jesus story including Horus, Zoroaster, etc.
There is quite a lot of imaginative stretching made in this connexion. A particular point to check is the earliest recorded date of matching, which may well be post-resurrection, applied to a deity that was worshipped pre-resurrection. In other words, copycat religions of Christianity are artfully (or perhaps ignorantly and innocently) made to seem its progenitors.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 07:48 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 49
Default

True, but that does not eliminate the possibility of Christianity mirroring a previous religious idea as well. I have a feeling though that there are probably a decent number of connections drawn that are unreasonable though.
shalak is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:23 AM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
True, but that does not eliminate the possibility of Christianity mirroring a previous religious idea as well.
Agreed; though, apart from the widespread ancient perception that mankind needed to propitiate deity, which is after all the central thought of Christianity, and which may be said to be a consequence of human existence, there is not too much that can be said to have been borrowed. There were allegorical motifs regarding creation and a global flood, borrowed and adapted to a Christian context, but that is no more than the borrowing of an incidental, though it is sometimes claimed to be more than that.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:36 AM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
True, but that does not eliminate the possibility of Christianity mirroring a previous religious idea as well. I have a feeling though that there are probably a decent number of connections drawn that are unreasonable though.
As I said, read this:

Justin Martyr
dog-on is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:42 AM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 3,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by shalak View Post
True, but that does not eliminate the possibility of Christianity mirroring a previous religious idea as well. I have a feeling though that there are probably a decent number of connections drawn that are unreasonable though.
As I said, read this:

Justin Martyr
Quote it. Here.
sotto voce is offline  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:48 AM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotto voce View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-on View Post

As I said, read this:

Justin Martyr
Quote it. Here.
Sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Martyr
CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

CHAPTER XXII -- ANALOGIES TO THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST.

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior--or rather have already proved Him to be so--for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.
dog-on is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:41 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.