Zora

This is a question for historians rather than apologists. I don't understand how the Catholic church fits into early Christianity. Was it the first govt. established church in Rome? The protestant denominations seem to hate Catholicism, but didn't the Catholic church essentially "write the book" on Christianity? I don't get it.

Samnell

Sort of. The Catholics will tell you that Jesus himself picked Pope Numero Uno in Cephas. This has never been substantiated.

The Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox (before they split) were the winners in the struggle among several quite different forms of Christianity. They got the government contract, as it were, and persecuted their way to prosperity. They did get the priviledge of pretty much defining Christianity however they wanted at all the big ecumenical councils, though. Most of Protestantism adheres to the rulings of the councils (or at least the big ones) too, although it's not something most Protestants seem to process.

spin

With a few notable exceptions such as Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr, most early xian writers were from anywhere but Rome. Then when xianity made it big-time, most of the decisions were through councils, which usually took place in the east, where most of the theological struggles took place as well. Rome was generally quite accommodating, eg it took a couple of decades to deal with the early "heretic", Marcion.


spin

The Evil One

They did, pretty much. The early protestants in the 16th century felt that the Catholic Church of the time wasn't following the book they'd written closely enough. They also had a number of other grievances (one guy even had a list). When they split away from the Church, the Church declared them heretics and put several of them on bonfires. Relations never really recovered.

Amos

It is not so much that relations never recovered but that heaven and hell don't mix very well. Must remember here that Luther was a heretic and no different than those who were reprimanded before him.

Heretics were those who claimed to be born again and remain torn in the saved sinner complex until they die. Catholics (at least those in Rome) call this hell and they seem to have a better way to do this. Point here is that to be born again does not mean very much if one cannot work out ones own salvation and therefore die with an unfinished race, so to speak. Luther, was one of those and, of course, none of them really understand their own position except that they are "on fire for the Lord" while in fact they are supposed to be the "chosen one on whom Gods favor rests." Indeed their being "on fire for the Lord" did get the best of them on many occasions.

spin

I don't think the eastern church(es) would appreciate this analysis. This was such a sizable split that we can't even pretend to call it a heresy and it took place several hundred years before Lex Luther started taking on Superman. And of course about the same time Lex was protesting, fat Henry was whoring and didn't like Rome's interest in his bed.

Rome had it best in the middle ages before the orthodox split, but even that is not so clear. Here's something from a Catholic site:


spin

Amos

They did more than that. They built the Church on divine revelation which was the rock of Peter (his keen insight into the dual nature of Jesus; Mt. 16:17 "no mere man has revealed this to you but my heavenly father").

Catholicism is miles removed from Christianity which itself is a contradiction. Catholicism is the -ism needed to become Christian and once you are a Christian it is impossible to be a Catholic . . . just as it was impossible for Jesus to be a Jew after he became a Christian. Christians are set free from religion and any kind of slavery and so it is impossible for their being a suffix placed behind the word Christian.

the_cave

Zora--yes, if you define the Catholic church as the church in union with the bishop of Rome, then it was eventually sactioned by the Roman Empire, and then established as the state religion. This is not to say that there weren't numerous schisms and struggles for authority.

It kind of depends on how you want to use terminology, but arguably there was really only one Church before that (call it Catholic if you like, or not), with many competing groups within it. Bishops such as those in Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria, came to hold more authority than other voices, though exactly how much is still debated today.

The Evil One

I was only giving the pop-up giude to church history

Magus55

That made absolutely no sense. You need Catholicism to be Christian, but once you are Christian, you can't be Catholic?

And you are actually incorrect that Jesus wasn't a Jew. Jesus didn't really "become" Christian. He embodies Christianity. Jesus was a full Jew even after His ministry.