FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-15-2010, 08:56 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: to the left, europe
Posts: 5,348
Default Son of God, literally (when)?

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?
StarryNight is offline  
Old 03-15-2010, 09:02 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 3,397
Default

I would imagine that the Greeks were already quite aware of the term Son of God, as they worshiped quite a few of them.
dog-on is offline  
Old 03-15-2010, 09:32 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dancing
Posts: 9,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?
This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia

Quote:
The Pious as Sons of God.

The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha contain a few passages in which the title "son of God" is given to the Messiah (see Enoch, cv. 2; IV Esdras vii. 28-29; xiii. 32, 37, 52; xiv. 9); but the title belongs also to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom ii. 13, 16, 18; v. 5, where "the sons of God" are identical with "the saints"; comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] iv. 10). It is through such personal relations that the individual becomes conscious of God's fatherhood, and gradually in Hellenistic and rabbinical literature "sonship to God" was ascribed first to every Israelite and then to every member of the human race (Abot iii. 15, v. 20; Ber. v. 1; see Abba). The God-childship of man has been especially accentuated in modern Jewish theology, in sharp contradistinction to the Christian God-sonship of Jesus.
The pagan term "son of God" was a title given to Roman emperors. IIRC since Julius Caesar was deified, emperors who took his name (Caesar) were his "sons". Thus they were "sons of god". To Greeks and Romans, if Jesus was called "son of God" this would imply his kingship.
show_no_mercy is offline  
Old 03-15-2010, 10:43 AM   #4
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North West usa
Posts: 10,245
Default

How would the "Muslims" know? Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?
funinspace is offline  
Old 03-15-2010, 12:09 PM   #5
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?
It seems more like true poo.

Once Paul was a Jew.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 03-16-2010, 05:39 AM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: to the left, europe
Posts: 5,348
Default

Thanks for the answers all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
How would the "Muslims" know?
Good question. I am not sure, but I think that looked at the bible or contemporary sources and found the term "Son of God" was applied to others. IIRC they said that David was called such.
Quote:
Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?
I was told that Paul wanted vengance against the Jews because they would not let him marry (cant remember her name) so he plotted over the years in the desert and invented the heretical version of Christianity found in his writings.
StarryNight is offline  
Old 03-16-2010, 09:46 AM   #7
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 40,549
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
... I was told that Paul wanted vengance against the Jews because they would not let him marry (cant remember her name) so he plotted over the years in the desert and invented the heretical version of Christianity found in his writings.
This is the story told about Paul by the Ebionites according to Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.16.6-9
Toto is offline  
Old 03-16-2010, 03:10 PM   #8
Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Falls Creek, Oz.
Posts: 11,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?
Utter bullshit. Why would the Greeks listen to "Dear Paul"? As you say, the Greeks had their own cultural investment in their own family of gods. Why would they discard such an investment? The Greeks had Apollo the son of the God Zeus plastered across the empire before the epoch when "Dear Paul" and Senecca lived. To compound this, the son of the God Apollo --- Asclepius --- was also extremely well recognised in magnificent temples and shrines across the empire cince at least the 3rd century BCE.

Both the Muslim religion and the christian religion were spread via the sword by military supremacists who both ordered for the execution of the authors of satirical literature works against the ideologies and "absolute authoritarian structure" of their respective centralised state religious cults.
mountainman is offline  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:09 PM   #9
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta
Posts: 11,885
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by funinspace View Post
How would the "Muslims" know? Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?
Good point as they have always been short one of those.
Chili is offline  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:12 PM   #10
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta
Posts: 11,885
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?
It seems more like true poo.

Once Paul was a Jew.
It is poo alright but Jesus was also born of a Jew and one just cannot be both son of God and Jew.
Chili is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:35 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.