JP2

Hello everyone. This is my first post on these forums for some time, but I do follow the debates here. This needn't be about the HJ vs the MJ (which seems to consume most of the threads here) but it might be relevant.

Basically, I'm interested in the motivations of the gospel authors. What were they trying to achieve in writing these texts and who were they writing for? The most common answer is that they were writing with an evangelical purpose: that is, to a wide audience with the intent of convincing them of the "good news" of Jesus Christ. I, however, don't think this is the most likely explanation for the authors' motivation, as I explain on my blog here. The most relevant points I would raise against the "gospels as evangelism" theory, are:

(I expand on the final point more fully in my blog post.)

Rather than attributing this evangelical purpose to the gospels, I would instead argue that they were initially composed both for and within a relatively small church or community, and served a rather more mundane lectionary or liturgical purpose. Their use as a tool of evangelism came later.

But for now, I'd be interested to hear what the rest of you would have to say about this topic.

(I apologise in advance if this topic has already been done to death. I did a search and couldn't find any relevant results.)

stephan huller

I clearly represent a minority opinion but I think that since the gospel is centrally fixated on the destruction of Judaism in 70 CE, the identity of the text is likely related to this. Judaism must have been seen as being on its last legs. God comes down to earth to confirm that. The temple had to be destroyed, the Jewish religion had to be brought to an end - in order to usher in the new age of the Christian religion.

I think the material that survives down to us has a Greek speaking audience in mind. One can posit the existence of a Semitic text that was aimed at Jewish proselytes in Syria and the Near East. I think what becomes rabbinic Judaism was aware of this message and is in a sense a conservative reaction against this original religion (probably associated with Elisha b Abuya and Mayesha/Meir)

There have always been Jewish groups that preach the doctrine of freedom from the Law. The Jewish religion is after all central focused on the virtues of slavery. For instance modern liberal Judaism is totally indebted to Frankism even if that debt isn't recognized. It is funny to see all these Jewish people who don't obey the laws of the Jewish religion in their daily lives and still think they are 'Jewish' - even religious Jews. They engage in all of this inherently contradictory behavior without recognizes who it was who allowed them to get away with this! The same thing happened in early Christianity. People no longer recognize the historical forces behind their own existence. In short we are stupid animals though out the ages. No reason to think we will ever change

Tommy

What would you say to an Xian who believes references to 70AD in the gospels are prophecy rather than reportage?

Duke Leto

Why were the Gospels written?

Because audio and video recording had not been invented yet, illustrative tapestries can not be easily transported and interpretive dance was considered too gay even for the Greeks.

sotto voce

What you have to say sounds not unfamiliar; like recording of the complaint of one who unplugs his telephone and wonders why he gets no calls. To regard the effects of violent antichristianity as the work of Christianity is guaranteed to produce such a result.

One can find on the internet much evidence of treatment of Christianity of any era as totally invisible; yet recognition of those with a record of activities that were used, when the internet was young, as 'reason' for rejecting Christianity.

There seems to have been a total U-turn, in a couple of decades. Those responsible for Crusades, censorship, Inquisitions, massacres and massive, universal oppression are now the sole inheritors of the gentle carpenter. That's conversion. That's the complete victory of those gospel authors.

sotto voce

The literate deaf deserved a choice.

ApostateAbe

It would take a strong case to overturn the prima facie intentions of the gospels (religious evangelism). Arguments from silence count for very little, as almost all written texts in the ancient world disintegrated before reaching modern times. If you focus your argument on the contents of the gospels, then perhaps you should focus heavily on Luke 1:4, where the author makes his own intention explicit: "...so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed." Matthew and Luke each contain rambling genealogies of Jesus, to prove that he was descended from David. The gospels are filled primarily with religious sermons of Jesus. They seem to have little entertainment value.

aa5874

Again, you promote propaganda and do not reflect what is actually written.

In the earliest Jesus stories as found in the short-ending gMark, the long ending gMark and gMatthew, the Jesus character DELIBERATELY spoke in Parables so that the OUTSIDERS could NOT understand him.

ONLY the INSIDERS, the Chosen Few, understood Jesus in the early Synoptic stories.

Matthew 13 The earliest Jesus story was NOT about Salvation by Crucifixion. The earliest story was written AFTER the Fall of the Temple to EXPLAIN the destruction of the Temple and the desolation of Jerusalem by claiming that the Jews REJECTED the Son of God and caused him to be crucified.

See the short-ending gMark.

It was the BELIEF of the story in gMark that caused THE START of the Jesus cult of Christians.

Sheshbazzar

I find the Gospels to be midrasim crafted so as to serve as mnemonic devices concealing the mapatakah ('keys') for unlocking the ha'natzaroth (the 'hidden things'/esoteric knowledge) of the Tanaka.
The two being so intricately interrelated that to ma'bien ('understand/comprehend/build upon') requires the recognition of, and the dedicated employment of specific ancient key shibboleth words and idioms, which are not exchangeable for any other or any foreign terms.
These ancient Hebrew 'shibboleths' are inherently ultra-exclusive, discriminating and identifying between those who might claim to be Israel's spiritual patriots, and between those who may try to 'pass' but whom by their indifferent and corrupted speech are revealed as being degenerate renegades, traitors, and spies.

When a Gileadite sentinel requires a 'shibboleth', one might be well advised to take care to frame their word of reply with all of the precision they can muster. (Judges 12:6)

ONE will say;
You shall surely discern between the unclean and the clean, and between that which is 'set-apart', and that which is common.
"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Yet another will speak saying;
"It doesn't make any difference what........."

No man can be obedient to two masters. To heed the ONE, you must despise the sayings of the other.
Whom will you hear? And to whose words is it that you respond in your speech and your actions?

These texts are not at all what they may appear to be to a casual reader, or to those practitioners and claimants whose 'forms of religion' are shallow and are resting only upon appearances.
'Many 'experts' will say.....' and will so speak according the words, to the observations, and according to that 'wisdom' which is of this world.

Passing this way, you will hear whom you will to hear, and will hearken unto whom you will to hearken.
But you cannot reverence every word men may speak, nor follow every call.

Therefore to day it can only be, as it is written; "To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day...."


Sheshbazzar the Hebrew



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outhouse

the original movement failed in judaism, all we have is cross cultural information regarding the jew


the gospels were all written around the roman empire by romans who partially followed judaism.

Its said Gmatthew was written to a more jewish audience, BUT it still used the roman foundation of Gmark, so by this alone we know it had nothing to do with the original jewish sect jesus had started.


each of the gospels have historical earmarks of where scholars beleive the mythology was crafted

also where it was scribed and where the cources originate are 4 different things.

Gmark = Syria or Palestine

Gmathew = Roman Syria

Gluke= particularly the neighborhood of Ephesus. BUT The place of composition is still an open question.


Gjohn = unknown with guesses everywhere, Ephesus, Syria, Alexandria