Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jess · 02-11-2007, 06:39 PM

Here---

I am not affiliated in any way--- just a happy customer and they are having a mega sale.

Roller · 02-13-2007, 06:28 AM

I see several courses by Luke Timothy Johnson. How does he compare to Ehrman? I like Ehrman's dispassionate style and his insistence on discussing history rather then theology.

Toto · 02-13-2007, 11:50 AM

Luke Timothy Johnson is a Catholic and relatively conservative, Ehrman a more liberal agnostic. But I think they would both do history in a history lecture. You can look them both up on the web to get a flavor of their style.

Roller · 02-13-2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Luke Timothy Johnson is a Catholic and relatively conservative, Ehrman a more liberal agnostic. But I think they would both do history in a history lecture. You can look them both up on the web to get a flavor of their style.

Thanks. I remember Robert Price mentioning something about Johnson having "an axe to grind." I don't remember what exactly it was. Also, I remember seeing matrix from Jesus Mysteries group where Johnson was in a box (something about historicty of Jesus/Gospels) that looked almost like a literalist to me.

maddog · 02-13-2007, 12:33 PM

I haven't listened to either Ehrman's or Johnson's courses at the Teaching Co. I did get Elizabeth McNamer's "New Testament" when that was out, but that has apparently been replaced and is no longer available. The Teaching Co. prides itself on the quality of its lectures/lecturers, and I have not been disappointed. All courses I've tried so far have been very interesting and educational.

#1653

Toto · 02-13-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

... I remember Robert Price mentioning something about Johnson having "an axe to grind." ....

Luke Timothy Johnson is an opponent of the Jesus Seminar. His position is that the Jesus of history cannot be recovered, and there is no alternative to the Jesus of faith.

Price's review of Johnson's book The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels (or via: amazon.co.uk) is here

Quote:

Ironically, despite Johnson's tirades against New Testament critics who treat the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles as fiction, his own lasting contribution to scholarship, his published dissertation The Literary Function of Possessions in Luke-Acts (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Scholars Press, 1977), is a brilliant piece of the very sort of literary analysis he fulminates against in The Real Jesus. If he can make the kind of sense he does of the author's intention in Luke and Acts, then Luke and Acts are fiction, not history.

All Johnson's subsequent work has been what James Barr calls "maximal conservatism." In his The Writings of the New Testament, for instance, he argues for the authentic Pauline authorship of the Pastoral Epistles (I and 2 Timothy and Titus), an anachronistic dinosaur of a view rendered pretty much incredible ever since Schleiermacher in the last century. It is clear that he now longs for the pre-critical paradise of traditional beliefs about biblical authorship and accuracy. What happened to change Johnson's scholarly judgment from radical to conservative? Nothing really. And here is where we discover how his criticism of the supposedly unsound methods of modem biblical criticism is just a blind, a smoke screen. Eventually Johnson admits that historical research cannot yield a definite portrait of the historical Jesus. That way lies agnosticism.

But then, as so often happens with religious writers, agnosticism magically transforms itself into fideism, a leap of faith. Instead of trying to build a plausible, historical Jesus construct out of elusive and shadowy evidence, says Johnson, we ought to be satisfied with the Christ of faith, the Son of God character of the Gospels and of Roman Catholic dogma. This is what he means by "the real Jesus" — the one the institutional Church thinks its owns the copyright on.

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02-11-2007, 06:39 PM	#1
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	sorta an ad--- teaching co having a sale on religious stuff Here--- I am not affiliated in any way--- just a happy customer and they are having a mega sale.

02-13-2007, 06:28 AM	#2
Roller Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 658	I see several courses by Luke Timothy Johnson. How does he compare to Ehrman? I like Ehrman's dispassionate style and his insistence on discussing history rather then theology.

02-13-2007, 11:50 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Luke Timothy Johnson is a Catholic and relatively conservative, Ehrman a more liberal agnostic. But I think they would both do history in a history lecture. You can look them both up on the web to get a flavor of their style.

02-13-2007, 12:33 PM	#5
maddog Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: nm Posts: 2,826	I haven't listened to either Ehrman's or Johnson's courses at the Teaching Co. I did get Elizabeth McNamer's "New Testament" when that was out, but that has apparently been replaced and is no longer available. The Teaching Co. prides itself on the quality of its lectures/lecturers, and I have not been disappointed. All courses I've tried so far have been very interesting and educational. #1653

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