dongiovanni1976x

"In a Roman court of law, as in a modern one, the proof of Jesus' resurrection is undeniable because of the numbers that saw Him (numbers of men/women who were still alive when Paul was writing and could be consulted for their story). Furthermore, at this time of writing, Paul himself was a primary source, more evidence still of the reality of the resurrection."

Re: 1 Corinthians 15:4-8

What are the choices of the skeptic regarding this putative event:

(1) Mass Hallucination
(2) Later Interpolation, due to no mention in the synoptic tradition
(3) Exaggeration, invention or even outright lie on Paul's part
(4) something else???

Which case is the strongest and what is the evidence that supports this case?

Toto

I pick later interpolation. Robert Price has the longest, most erudite argument on the question: Apocryphal Apparitions: 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 As a Post-Pauline Interpolation

Not only is there no mention of 500 in the synoptic tradition, and a contradictory figure from Acts, where there are only 120 believers shortly after Jesus' last appearances on earth, but the language sticks out like a sore thumb. The passage sounds like an ancient creed, and rolls off the tongue like poetry, with mentions of prominent church founders and leaders - but then in the middle there is an insertion of 500 anonymous bretheren and the note that some of them are still alive (and presumably available as witnesses.)

dongiovanni1976x

I beleive you were the one who pointed out Robert Price's article to me Toto. I have read it and thus I should have mentioned that it was partially was motivated me to submit this thread. Although I dabble a little, I am not a Greek scholar. Are you familiar enough with Price's claims to summarize what it is about the Greek that seems to make it so obvious?

Sparrow

If I write that '100,000 people saw Kerry's inauguration in person', does that mean that 100,000 people actually saw it or is it the deranged writing of one?

Steven Carr

Perhaps they saw Jesus in a nacho, or a tortilla?

As for evidence, there is none. Name one of these people, where they were or what they saw. There are no details.

Perhaps 500 people saw Jesus in a shape in the clouds. Who can say?

Peter Kirby

The options are:

1. Paul did not say it.
2. Paul said it, and it was based on an experience.
3. Paul said it, and it was not based on an experience.

Possible explanations of (1) are:

(1a) The verse or part of it was interpolated.
(1b) The passage was interpolated (Robert Price).
(1c) The letter is spurious.

Possible explanations of (2) are:

(2a) Jesus rose from the dead and hovered in view of 500 people.
(2b) 500 people had a so-called mass hallucination of the same.
(2c) 500 people got together at some point and experienced something interpreted as the presence / appearance / revelation of Jesus (Peter Kirby).

Possible explanations of (3) are:

(3a) Paul made it up. (For any number of reasons.)
(3b) Someone else made it up.
(3c) It was not viewed as a literal statement.

This gives a person about nine choices for an understanding of the origin of the statement.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Chris Weimer

:wave:

Didymus

Paul is the only source for the "500" number. Did Paul tell us who he consulted or what was said in the interview(s)? Can you tell us?

Exactly what did Paul say he saw, and how did he know that he was really seeing the Risen Christ? How do you know what he saw?

As proof goes, even as proof for ancient events goes, this is pretty flimsy stuff, and not even close to "undeniable."

Didymus

Sparrow

So if we find an image on a tortilla, how do we know it's an image of Jesus and not Ahmed the camel herder from down the path? I don't recall having any images from Jesus' lifetime for comparison.

Somewhere I have video of Lee Strobel saying something like 'the story's too unbelievable not to be true!'. Such is believers logic.

Doug Shaver

Would you mind identifying the source of that quotation?