Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James Brown · 09-19-2007, 09:59 AM

I'm currently reading through Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash (or via: amazon.co.uk) and was intrigued by a conversation between two characters roughly in the middle of the book. I'd like to discuss it with other if A) others here have read it and B) if the topic is of interest.

A very high-level summary would have to be that we know a lot about ancient Sumerians because they wrote everything on clay tablets. At one point the Sumerian language was widespread, then it vanished. One mystery behind all this that linquists puzzle over is why languages tend to fragment rather then converge. So, the theory goes, before the arrival of a deity figure named Enki, everyone spoke Sumerian, and after he performed some sort of magic, languages began to fragment and multiply.

Obviously this echoes the Tower of Babel story in the Bible. The story line of Snow Crash suggests that Enki may have been a real person who developed a sort of neurolinquistic virus that changed the human mind of anyone who read his tablets.

Okay, reading back over that, I obviously haven't described it very well. On the face of it it sounds entirely implausible. The theory as described has wide scope, from the Garden of Eden to Pentecostal speaking-in-tongues glossolalia. What I'm not sure is if there is any merit to all this--in which case I'd like to learn more--or if this is just one fiction author's take on things--in which case I'll just shut up and enjoy the story.

Hex · 09-19-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

I'm currently reading through Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash (or via: amazon.co.uk) and was intrigued by a conversation between two characters roughly in the middle of the book. I'd like to discuss it with other if A) others here have read it and B) if the topic is of interest.

A very high-level summary would have to be that we know a lot about ancient Sumerians because they wrote everything on clay tablets. At one point the Sumerian language was widespread, then it vanished. One mystery behind all this that linquists puzzle over is why languages tend to fragment rather then converge. So, the theory goes, before the arrival of a deity figure named Enki, everyone spoke Sumerian, and after he performed some sort of magic, languages began to fragment and multiply.

Obviously this echoes the Tower of Babel story in the Bible. The story line of Snow Crash suggests that Enki may have been a real person who developed a sort of neurolinquistic virus that changed the human mind of anyone who read his tablets.

Okay, reading back over that, I obviously haven't described it very well. On the face of it it sounds entirely implausible. The theory as described has wide scope, from the Garden of Eden to Pentecostal speaking-in-tongues glossolalia. What I'm not sure is if there is any merit to all this--in which case I'd like to learn more--or if this is just one fiction author's take on things--in which case I'll just shut up and enjoy the story.

I've read it and find it intruiging as well. One thing to recognize, of course, is that Stephenson isn't working on just a historical angle here, he's also working to 'fit' our view of computers into an organic model of human civilization. I don't want to give up the spoilers (Though I do admit that the ending is just plain awesome), but what he's postulating in this is that Sumerian is the 'machine language' of the human brain's neural system.

As far as I know, that's not a widely accepted idea ...

James Brown · 09-19-2007, 12:16 PM

Thanks for the spoiler alert: I have about 100 pages to go. It wouldn't make sense for Stephenson to discuss this topic at length unless he wants to work it into his story.

In the acknowledgements, I see that he credits the information about Asherah to his brother-in-law who works in the University of Edinburgh. He also writes this:

Quote:

...it should be pointed out that when I wrote the Babel material, I was standing on the shoulders of many, many historians and archaeologists who actually did the research; most of the words spoken by the Librarian originated with these people, and I have tried to make the Librarian give credit where due, verbally footnoting his comments like a good scholar, which I am not.

That tells me that someone is thinking about these ideas. Who are these "many, many historians and archaeologists"?

Toto · 09-19-2007, 01:23 PM

Snow_Crash

Quote:

Stephenson takes the reader on a tour of the mythology of ancient Sumer, while his characters theorize upon the origin of languages and their relationship to the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel. Asherah is portrayed as a deadly biological and verbal virus that was stopped in Ancient Sumer by the God Enki. In order to do that, Enki deployed a countermeasure that was later described as the Tower of Babel. The book also reflects ideas from Julian Jaynes's The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (or via: amazon.co.uk) (1976).

The characters speculate that early Sumerian culture used a primordial language which could be interpreted by human beings through the deep structures of the brain, rendering the learning of what he refers to as "acquired languages" needless. This theoretical language is related to glossolalia — also known as the phenomenon of "speaking in tongues" — stating that the babbling of glossolalia is in truth a truncated form of the primordial language.

This seems really confused. The babbling of glossolalia is often identified with the "speaking in tongues" in Acts, where the disciples speak, and each person understands in his own language. But they are two entirely different things.

Quote:

A comparison is made to computers and their binary machine code, which exists on a much more basic level than, for example, the human-readable, high-level programming languages, and as such gives those with the ability to speak the language great power.

More confusion.

Quote:

In the Snow Crash interpretation of Sumerian mythology, the masses were controlled by means of verbal rules called me. The characters of Hiro and Lagos compare me to small pieces of software that could be interpreted by humans, and that contained information for specific tasks such as baking bread. Me were stored in a temple and their distribution was handled by a high priest, referred to as the en. Within this context, Enki was an en who had the ability to write new me, and is described as the primordial hacker. Also, the deuteronomists are supposed to have had an en of their own, and that kabbalistic sorcerers known as the Baalei Shem (masters of the name) could control the primordial tongue.

Me were erased from people's minds by a meta-virus (see the definition of meta-), a fact theoretically explaining the Tower of Babel myth. Enki then wrote a me called "The nam-shub of Enki", which had the effect of blocking the meta-virus from acting by preventing direct access to the primordial language, making the use of "acquired languages" necessary. The meta-virus did not disappear entirely, though, as the "Cult of Asherah" continued to spread it by means of cult prostitutes and infected women breast-feeding infants. This form of infection is compared to that of the herpes simplex virus or to the way religion is acquired.

I'd say, enjoy the fiction, if that is your thing. The book does have 506 reviews on Amazon, including those who think this is the most important book of the millenium. But it sounds like an incoherent view of the human brain.

09-19-2007, 06:19 PM

It's a great book, and I recommend it to everyone. It's an amazing flight of fancy; with wild and crazy ideas that seem to make sense in context - way better than star trek technobabble. But don't spoil the fiction by trying to force-fit it into reality.

Antipope Innocent II · 09-19-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cajela

But don't spoil the fiction by trying to force-fit it into reality.

Stephenson is the last writer to expect readers to take his fiction as being factually accurate. One of the things that makes him a great writer is the clever way he blends very detailed real stuff (science and history mostly) with his equally detailed inventive fiction so that it's often hard to tell where one ends and the other starts.

If you find his blending in this regard interesting in Snowcrash then I'd highly recommend his Baroque Cycle (or via: amazon.co.uk). They are the best novels I've read in years. And they are "Baroque" in several senses of the word - Snowcrash looks like a simple kids' comic by comparison to their sprawling complexity.

Toto · 09-24-2007, 06:38 PM

BCH seems to have run out of ideas here, perhaps this will be of interest to Media and Pop Culture.

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 09-25-2007, 09:25 AM

It looks like this discussion has been fleshed out, but I'd just like to say that this book is every bit as good as the hype. If you like sci-fi and haven't read it yet - then do so and you will be rewarded greatly!

Also, 'Diamond Age' by the same author is a worthwhile read. It starts off with less flash and cyberpunkishness, but delivers great tech, ideas and story.

09-19-2007, 09:59 AM	#1
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	Snow Crash and the Tower of Babel I'm currently reading through Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash (or via: amazon.co.uk) and was intrigued by a conversation between two characters roughly in the middle of the book. I'd like to discuss it with other if A) others here have read it and B) if the topic is of interest. A very high-level summary would have to be that we know a lot about ancient Sumerians because they wrote everything on clay tablets. At one point the Sumerian language was widespread, then it vanished. One mystery behind all this that linquists puzzle over is why languages tend to fragment rather then converge. So, the theory goes, before the arrival of a deity figure named Enki, everyone spoke Sumerian, and after he performed some sort of magic, languages began to fragment and multiply. Obviously this echoes the Tower of Babel story in the Bible. The story line of Snow Crash suggests that Enki may have been a real person who developed a sort of neurolinquistic virus that changed the human mind of anyone who read his tablets. Okay, reading back over that, I obviously haven't described it very well. On the face of it it sounds entirely implausible. The theory as described has wide scope, from the Garden of Eden to Pentecostal speaking-in-tongues glossolalia. What I'm not sure is if there is any merit to all this--in which case I'd like to learn more--or if this is just one fiction author's take on things--in which case I'll just shut up and enjoy the story.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-19-2007, 06:19 PM	#5
cajela Guest Posts: n/a	It's a great book, and I recommend it to everyone. It's an amazing flight of fancy; with wild and crazy ideas that seem to make sense in context - way better than star trek technobabble. But don't spoil the fiction by trying to force-fit it into reality.

09-24-2007, 06:38 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	BCH seems to have run out of ideas here, perhaps this will be of interest to Media and Pop Culture.

09-25-2007, 09:25 AM	#8
WWJD4aKlondikeBar Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 3,076	It looks like this discussion has been fleshed out, but I'd just like to say that this book is every bit as good as the hype. If you like sci-fi and haven't read it yet - then do so and you will be rewarded greatly! Also, 'Diamond Age' by the same author is a worthwhile read. It starts off with less flash and cyberpunkishness, but delivers great tech, ideas and story.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.