Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bubba · 12-04-2003, 03:00 PM

One additional and seldom mentioned criticism of Genesis 1-11 is that Iron woring supposedly wasn't around until about 1500-1200B.C., thus making it unlikely that Tubal Cain could have worked with iron as Genesis 4 suggests.

However...

It's recently been claimed by Christian apologists that iron working was common by the time of Tubal Cain in Genesis 4. Was Iron working common by this time...or are they full of crap on this one as well?

Thanks for your time in answering this quickie!

Bubba

Doctor X · 12-04-2003, 03:06 PM

It was . . . but all of the evidence was destroyed by the Flood and none of Noah's sons knew about iron. . . .

--J.D.

Toto · 12-04-2003, 03:52 PM

A clever apologist-creationist has speculated that the geneologies in Genesis were incomplete, so the flood happened before 8500 BC, at which time there was an advanced civilization - so advanced that Noah was able to load his ark with embyos (!?!)

Quartz Hill Journal of Theology

Ater the Flood, as Dr. X says, human civilization reverted quite a bit in technical advancement, as we would after a nuclear war. (Did you think Dr. X invented that explanation?) So there would be no evidence of ironworking for those secular anthropologists to find.

Creationism.org speculates that Tubal-Cain was actually a Brazilian.

Do you have a cite from the apologists who claim that there is early evidence of ironworking? I'm having some internet connectivity problems right now, but I think that you might find some answers on www.talkorigins.org in regard to certain claimed ancient iron artifacts.

rlogan · 12-04-2003, 04:14 PM

Beat me to it there, Toto. I haven't reviewed the talk.origins stuff, but -

pretty interesting note there, Bubba!! Such a great site at IID.

Seems like most sources cite 1200 B.C. as the beginning of the "iron age" on account of the introduction of charcoal in iron smelting. But smelted iron ornaments and ceremonial weapons were present from 1900 to 1400 BC in the Hittite Empire. It is thought they kept the technology a secret.

So, it is evidence that Genesis was written long "after the fact".

We're talking over half a millenia.

The fundies can explain away anything.

Doctor X · 12-04-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Did you think Dr. X invented that explanation?

Are you calling me . . . "unoriginal?!"

Quote:

Your work is both original and good. Unfortunately that which is good is not original, and that which is original is not good.

--Samuel Johnson

It saddens me that people believe my "explanation" actually happened!

Anyways, my sources are not here so I will stop just posting wit [Wit?--Ed.]

--J.D.

12-04-2003, 03:00 PM	#1
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Primitive Iron Workers Local 666 One additional and seldom mentioned criticism of Genesis 1-11 is that Iron woring supposedly wasn't around until about 1500-1200B.C., thus making it unlikely that Tubal Cain could have worked with iron as Genesis 4 suggests. However... It's recently been claimed by Christian apologists that iron working was common by the time of Tubal Cain in Genesis 4. Was Iron working common by this time...or are they full of crap on this one as well? Thanks for your time in answering this quickie! Bubba

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12-04-2003, 03:06 PM	#2
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	It was . . . but all of the evidence was destroyed by the Flood and none of Noah's sons knew about iron. . . . --J.D.

12-04-2003, 03:52 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A clever apologist-creationist has speculated that the geneologies in Genesis were incomplete, so the flood happened before 8500 BC, at which time there was an advanced civilization - so advanced that Noah was able to load his ark with embyos (!?!) Quartz Hill Journal of Theology Ater the Flood, as Dr. X says, human civilization reverted quite a bit in technical advancement, as we would after a nuclear war. (Did you think Dr. X invented that explanation?) So there would be no evidence of ironworking for those secular anthropologists to find. Creationism.org speculates that Tubal-Cain was actually a Brazilian. Do you have a cite from the apologists who claim that there is early evidence of ironworking? I'm having some internet connectivity problems right now, but I think that you might find some answers on www.talkorigins.org in regard to certain claimed ancient iron artifacts.

12-04-2003, 04:14 PM	#4
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Beat me to it there, Toto. I haven't reviewed the talk.origins stuff, but - pretty interesting note there, Bubba!! Such a great site at IID. Seems like most sources cite 1200 B.C. as the beginning of the "iron age" on account of the introduction of charcoal in iron smelting. But smelted iron ornaments and ceremonial weapons were present from 1900 to 1400 BC in the Hittite Empire. It is thought they kept the technology a secret. So, it is evidence that Genesis was written long "after the fact". We're talking over half a millenia. The fundies can explain away anything.

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