Johnny Skeptic

There is not a necessarily correlation between the ability to predict the future and good character, otherwise stated, between power and good character. God provably has poor character. Therefore, decent people have no choice but to reject him. It is outrageous that you try to defend God's character. God deliberately withholds food from people who starve to death, including some of his most devout and faithful followers. James says that if a man refuses to give food to hungry people, he is vain, and his faith is dead. This means that God is vain, that he is a hypocrite, and that he is not compassionate. If feeding hungry people is a worthy goal, it is a worthy goal for humans and for God. One million people died of starvation in Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians, becuase God deliberately refuse to provide them with food, and yet, you have the audacity to say that God came up with the goods regarding a dream. A starving person would much rather have some food to eat than the interpretation of a dream. Are you aware that the book of Daniel was most likely written by more than one person over a span of centuries? God destroys lots of food supplies with hurricanes and locusts. God kills people with hurricanes. God cannot possible derive any benefits from such detestable behavior, and humans most certainly do not derive any benefits from being injured and killed by hurricanes. From a Christian perspective, there is no such thing as a natural disaster. God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5. God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. God provides information to some people who he knows will reject it, and withholds information from some people who he knows will accept it. Will you actually claim that God is not able to do anything more than he has done to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible to to hell? God injures and kills innocent animals. No particular person can ever ask God for a specific tangible necessity of life and be assured that he will receive it. If God does not exist, the only consistent benefits that anyone could ever be assured that they would receive would be subjective spiritual benefits. Do you have any evidence that today, all tangible benefits are not distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics? Well of course you don't. While tangible benefits are frequently distributed to people who are not in greatest need, including to some evil people who never become Christians, they are frequently withheld from people who are in greatest need, including some of God's most devout and faithful followers, which suggests that there is not a reasonably provable correlation between praying to God and getting results. God punishes innocent animals.

You don't by any chance have any evidence that God performs miracles healings today, do you?

If God exists, if he were mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently than he acts now? The correct answer is, not any differently at all. No being who helps people AND kills people is mentally competent. Under our legal system, many of God's actions and allowances are punishable by life in prison or death. You would never accept any being other than God who did the awful things that God sometimes does and allows.

I have much better character than God does. If I had the power to heal all of the sick people in the world, I would. Wouldn't you? If I had the power to prevent hurricanes, I would. Wouldn't you? I want to help people, not hurt people like God does, and yet you question my character instead of his. Shame on you.

You need to realize that the Bible is not of any value to you in debates unless you can reasonably prove that God has good character.

spin

And going a little further, he threw himself on the ground and pray that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. He said, "Abba, Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me; yet, not what I want, but what you want." Mk 14:35-36

All this was while the disciples slept. You can't pretend that you have no reading skills, Helpmabob. The problem is plain. There were simply no participants to Jesus's prayer.

It doesn't make sense for you to assume your conclusions. You haven't established the existence of a god, so you cannot predicate anything on it/him/her.

You need to do more than that. You made the rash claim that the bible was accurate. It is certainly not accurate in any of the examples I've put forward.

If you want to retract the claim that the bible is accurate, I can go on to prophecy. Unless you can substantiate your claims, you shouldn't introduce them.

Umm, this sort of comment is usually called a non sequitur.

If you are prepared to read the texts honestly, I'll hear your responses.

So, yes, I'll await your attempts to deal honestly with the inaccuracies in the bible that I have cited.

Similar ground?

Probably depends on the Pharisee, though I'd probably know some different types of things. My analyses are based on more modern techniques. Linguistic analysis didn't exist at the time, neither did form criticism and a lot of other techniques. Pharisaic tools for analysis were quite restricted, but nearly two thousand years of literary analysis have gone by since then, so you must expect different and often more subtle and accurate analyses.

That's your theory.

More of your theory. But like the previous theory, totally unsupported by substantive evidence.

It does sound though that you are creating a back door for you to run away through.

That was not the purpose. You made a rash claim about accuracy that you seem to be backing out of.

More assumptions that mean nothing until substantiated.

The archives here are full of prophecies torn to shreds and sad people trying desperately to ways to make them still work. You see them going for the most absurd contortions, negations of evidence, appeals to uncertainty or silence.

Let's take a great prophecy: "Look, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call him Emmanuel." Mt 1:23.

This is derived from Isaiah 7:14 which actually says "Look, a young woman with child shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel."

Note that the original has nothing to do with virgins. As I've already said the Greek was poorly translated and the so-called prophecy is based on an error. The Hebrew is very clear that the subject was a young woman (Hebr: almah), not a virgin (Hebr: betulah). You'll find sites all over the web trying to explain away the literal sense of the Hebrew text to justify the bad Greek translation. Another important fact is that she is already pregnant, so she can hardly be a virgin.

In fact, if you read the original text in its context, you'll find what the passage is about: it refers to events that were to happen in the reign of Ahaz, ie that before the child will be able to distinguish between good and evil, Assyria will have taken Ephraim away. The child is actually to be the son of Isaiah, called Emmanuel ("god is with us" -- for Judah will remain), just as in the following chapter there is another predicted son, Maher-shalal-hash-baz ("the spoil speeds, the prey hastens"), and before the child can say "my father", Assyria will have taken the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria.

Because the text is coherent in itself, the apologist has to appeal to the notion that the text can have more than one usage, ie apply to more than one situation, but when you rip a text out of its context and change the words, of course you can make it say whatever you like.

Does an angel really say that to Joseph or is this just another of Matthew's abuses of the Hebrew bible, like the example I've already given of Jesus riding two animals at once for the triumphant entry. (Mt 21:2ff)

I guess you can't help mascherading your schizophrenic-like ideas as reality.

You have a very weird idea of prophecy. This is a statement of comfort. It's like me saying, "if you read the bible honestly and without your preconceived ideas, you find out how impressive the book really is."


spin

Helpmabob

You’re right to say that proper prophecy that is worthy of note (i.e. comes true etc.) does not necessarily issue forth from persons with ‘good’ characters as you put it. But either way, it is always God who instigates the prophecy in the souls of the individuals concerned.

There is also ‘prophecy’ that comes from man rather than God (even when the person claims to be speaking for God), but this doesn’t come true: If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord and what he says does not come true, then it is not the Lord’s message. That prophet has spoken on his own authority and you are not to fear him. [Deuteronomy 18:22] As an example, Joseph Smith, the Mormon leader has come out with several prophecies, all of which have failed to come true.

Again, because all useful prophecy comes from God, the essence of a prophet that is worth heeding is that he knows God and obeys His commands: None of these prophets has ever known the Lord’s secret thoughts. None of them has ever heard or understood His message but still they spoke in my name. [Jeremiah 23:18]

Would you die on a cross for me? He helps us in all our troubles. [2 Corinthians 1: 4]. How many troubles have you helped me with Johnny? Perhaps you could give a quick bullet point list of these things to help ratify your claim.

The Bible is invaluable anyway. It doesn’t depend upon me. Rather, I depend on the message it contains.


There was sufficient time for Jesus to relate the content of His prayer and the meaning of the disciples’ tiredness. You are reading too pedantically here. It doesn’t record every detail of when the disciples ate or washed or rested. It is not necessary for everything to follow without a break from the preceding passage.

Anyway, it has not been left to the foibles of man to decide what is reported in the Bible. It is all under the control and authorship of the Holy Spirit For no prophetic message ever came just from the will of man, but men were under the control of the Holy Spirit as they spoke the message that came from God. [2 Peter 1:21]

The God who created heaven and earth and the universe and all living things, who breathes life into thousands of new-born babies every day and watches over their every move throughout their life was able to achieve His purpose of ensuring Mary gave birth without having had sex.

That’s your world-based theory, designed to fit your preconceived prejudices. What you miss is that prophecy can prefigure future events beyond the wildest imagination (in this case a virgin birth of the Son of God) even when Isaiah thought he was writing about something that could conceivably happen. It’s not rocket science spin, but your simple world-view analysis will miss it every time without fail. And as you know your Bible so well, I won’t bother to mention the ‘million or so’ Messianic prophecies that were fulfilled with the birth, life and death of Jesus

And now a festive prophecy from Jeremiah: Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretence," declares the LORD. [Jeremiah 3: 9,10] Witness everyone with their Christmas trees. They worship the Christmas tree and the precious stones in the presents. All this blatant consumerism is under the pretence of celebrating the birth of Christ. Open your eyes and see this prophecy fulfilled.

Johnny Skeptic

I did not say that anything depended upon you. I mentioned God's character, not yours. The Bible says that God is loving, good, and perfect. but there is a good deal of evidence that this is not true. Following is some of the evidence:

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish. That is an obvious lie since God sometimes provides information to people who he knows will reject it, and deliberately withholds information from some people who he knows will accept it if they are aware of it. Isn't that right?

James says that if a man refuses to give food to hungry people, he is vain, and his faith is dead. This proves that God is vain, and that he is a hypocrite. One million people died in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians, because God refused to give them food.

God kills people with hurricanes, including babies, not to mention innocent animals.

Do you have any evidence that today, all tangible benefits are not distributed entirely at random according the laws of physics. While tangible benefits are frequently distributed to people who are not in greatest need, including to some rich, evil people who never become Christians, they are frequently withheld from people who are in greatest need, including some of God's most devout and faithful followers. There is in fact no specific tangible necessity of life that any particular Christian can ask God for and be assured that he will receive, which is exactly what is to be expected if God does not exist. If God does exist, he is apathetic about the tangible needs of mankind, or he is mentally incompetent. If God were mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently than he acts now? The correct answer is, not any diffierently at all. Even Attila the Hun did not kill his own followers like God does.

A loving God would care about peoples' tangible needs, not just their spiritual needs.

The validity of the Bible depends upon God being perfect. Otherwise, he could not fairly demand that anyone else become perfect through faith in Jesus Christ. Since the God of the Bible is not anywhere near perfect according to his own standards, either he does not exist, or he exists and is a liar.

You would never be able to love any being other than God who committed the atrocities that God sometimes commits. Why have you abandoned your principles and morals in God's case? I would never commit the atrocities against mankind that God has committed, and yet you have the audacity to question my character. I want to help people, not hurt them like God does.

spin

I think you are working too hard to insult your own intelligence arguing this way. When exactly do you imagine Jesus got time to explain the specific words he used to pray while the disciples slept between the time he says, "Get up, let us be going. See, my betrayer is at hand" and "Immediately, while he was still speaking, Judas one of the twelve, arrived..."?

Are you just being funny or something?

Surely, you know about covering one's hind parts. This is no excuse for refusing to deal with the substance of the complaint.

You seem to have totally missed the point. This is a non-prophecy mismanaged by a gospel writer due to an erroneous translation and created this virgin birth story.

Rubbish. You are ignoring the abuse of the Hebrew bible so as not to deal with the fake story about the virgin birth.

It's just not there, Helpmabob. It is a mistranslation into Greek. It's an error, get it, wrong? false? The text says nothing about a virgin. She was just a young woman, Isaiah's young woman, who would provide him with a son who would be a measure of the efficacy of the Assyrian assault on Samaria.

I know you cannot help but justify the lie. You have to. It's your religious belief and the only way out of that is to accept the lie and stonewall.

Fraud is not rocket science, Helpmabob.

You aren't arguing. You are making empty claims which don't help you deal with the virgin birth fraud. Read the text. If you can't, look at a decent translation like the NRSV. The text says nothing about a virgin. I have told you what happened and you have just changed the topic. Was that just short term memory failure or was that intentional evasion?

There aren't a million words in the bible, so we can treat that silly declaration like the vacuity it is. Now if you won't check the archives about prophecy, would you like to put forward a prophecy which has a historically checkable basis so we can actually analyse it, rather than let you beat your chest over another fable?

Now, given your poor showing with regard to evidence that the bible isn't accurate, there's no need to bring your attention to the fact that you haven't dealt with much of what I posted on the subject last time, because you don't seem able to deal with the bible. All you can do is cite non sequiturs.

Doesn't the image in Matthew of Jesus riding two animals at once even make you smile?? Naaa, you can't appreciate the text, because you have to believe it.

So, you can't show that your world view is any different from that of a schizophrenic and you can't understand the bible because you are too busy believing that it is infallible. You've struck out twice. What opportunity do you need to make it three in a row?

And why should you celebrate the Saturnalia? It only got converted into the birthday of Jesus in the 4th century.


spin

Helpmabob

So that’s a list of exactly zero things which you have helped me with. Your claim to be more moral and caring than God is empty when it comes to the crunch. Tell me about your righteousness again once more though as your posts are always wonderfully entertaining and insightful. At least you’re reliable in that respect even if your claims are false.

For future reference, to see the standards you need to exceed: The Lord’s unfailing love and mercy still continue, fresh as the morning, sure as the sunrise. [Lamentations 3:22,23] Read all of Lamentations ch. 3 if you have time, I think you’ll like it. Good luck on your quest.

Does it say what He said before that? And before that? It doesn’t say. It’s not a micro-manager’s textbook. The book would be too unwieldy if everything was recorded. Have you counted how many things you say per minute of the day? Are you accounting for the fact that Jesus was considered a more accomplished teacher than you are?

And most importantly, this could have been taught beforehand, because: Jesus knew everything that was going to happen to Him. [John 18:4]Jesus Christ was a better man than you or me. It was all under the guidance of the Spirit. It is the authorship of the Spirit that gives the Bible the divine authority that is lacking in an ordinary book. That is why we can trust the prophecies and witness their fulfilment (e.g. Christmas trees) even today. Thus another supposed contradiction becomes a useful lesson to one and all.

That is why we can have complete confidence that the same God who gave these prophecies and inspires all prophecy will in this very day honour His pledges made in ancient times: The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light… [Isaiah 9:2] And then: Jesus said “I am the light of the world” [John 8:12]

The light was prophesied of old. I have seen that light and it is indeed great. All of the promises and prophecies of the Lord are reliable and fulfilled.

Prophecy is like a set of jigsaw puzzles. Some of them we can complete alone; others can never be solved; There are also those that we can get most of the way through, but need God’s help to fit the final few pieces – when we put our faith in God rather than, He shows us where the pieces go to complete some of the puzzles.

Who says I celebrate the festival of unbridled consumerism now commonly known as Christmas? I don't need a special day to celebrate the riches of Christ.

spin

The text is so clear, I don't see why you won't read it:

1. He came to them a third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? Enough." The disciples were asleep when he returned and woke them up with these words. He said nothing that they would remember before he woke them up. He then announces the urgency of the situation:
2. The time has come; the son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. The reason is that Judas and co. were approaching, so Jesus prepares his disciples:
3. Get up, let us be going. See, my betrayer is at hand." And Judas immediately arrived while he was still speaking.

Given the text as it is, it presents a dramatic situation as if it were real time, no pauses available for hasty teaching of what was said while they were sleeping. One cannot be serious in proposing a hypothetical reality in which Jesus said, "I'm about to be captured and crucified, let me tell you what I was just praying about, so that someone some day will capture it for posterity." The desperation of conceiving such a scenario is telling.

"Now boys, you're going to fall asleep even though I need your company."
"Us? Fall asleep? Never."
"Ah, but you will. Mark my words. You won't hear me praying to god the father."
"About what?"
"I'm going to have misgivings because of the harrowing experience which I've already hinted at."
"But what exactly are you going to say?"
"Why do you ask?"
"So that we will remember when the time comes and pass it on to posterity."
"But I've said so many wonderful things to you. Won't they be sufficient?"
"But lord, when we fall asleep and you pray, we won't be able to hear your words and we will miss them."

Perhaps it wouldn't have been said quite that way, but just think about what you are proposing, Helpmabob.

And my better man was better than your better man. You're back to the schizophrenic at work.

If Jesus knew what he was doing and knew it all before it happened this stuff about being under the guidance of the spirit is useless. Think for crap's sake, Helpmabob.

If men wrote it down, Helpmabob, what makes you think, besides what they wrote down, that the authorship was of the spirit? If they wrote it down, how do you know that they didn't just simply write it that way? (Do think about this because it requires you to say how you know what you claim to know, based on something that someone wrote, though you weren't there at the time of writing to know the circumstances of the writing. You just have the claims written down by the writers that may simply have been written by the writers.)

That was as logically connected as a GWB speech.

You have attempted willy-nilly to throw up unreasoned excuses as to why a piece of drama is not realistic and then you finish with finding an easter egg.

If anyone had confidence in that showing, it wasn't you. You are abandoning all hope of coherence to rush to this conclusion built on nothing you've said:

Umm, which prophecies, Helpmabob? I get the idea that you could turn a shopping list into a prophecy.

Just remember, Helpmabob, "Vanity of Vanities, sayeth the preacher. "All is vanity."

You're now frothing at the mouth. Can you keep down a job with such incoherence?

While you are talking at me and not communicating, just let me say that if you look at the sun for too long, you'll go blind. You'll go blind for other reasons as well.

Now write that 500 times and you'll believe it.

Why mystify yourself with such claptrap, Helpmabob? You apparently have to believe things are difficult and that you can't understand unless you have someone hold your hand, someone that no-one can see, someone who will tell you what you need to know. The doctors will tell you that that's called delusion.

That'll stop you from feeling the complete idiot, right?

You need to read William James's "The Varieties of Religious Experience". Now that would be a revelation for you to understand what you are undergoing.

You mean you won't sit around the family table at xmas and play happy families with a xmas tree with presents under it and white messages sprayed on your windows and mistletoe for the suggestion of erotic animism and sing hymns and go to bed with anticipation until the morning when you can go downstairs and open all the presents?

I did note a sense avoidance through your post Helpmabob, avoidance of most of what you were claiming to respond to. All you seem to able to do now, Helpmabob, is not to deal with what people say to you, but brush it off in an effort to proselytize. That way you don't have to think for yourself that much, you won't have to strain with the effort of dealing with real world challenges. You are of course not of this world, so why should you deal with it? What'll happen if you discover that you are of this world and you've let much of it pass you by?


spin

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: Will you please tell us why God created the bacteria (Bubonic Plague) that killed one fourth of the people in Europe, why God refuses to consistently protect people from murderers, rapists, and terrorists, why God kills people with hurricanes, including babies, and why God withhold information from some people who would accept it if they were aware of it? I would never commit any of those atrocities against mankind, and yet you criticize my character. Shame on you.

Are you aware that you are not able to ask God for any tangible benefit and be assured that you will receive it? Do you have any evidence that today, all tangible benefits are not distributed entirley at random according to the laws of physics.

Helpmabob

But the disciples definitely didn’t know beforehand about Jesus’ arrest. Neither did they probably have much of an idea about their being guided by the Holy Spirit at that time. However, the guidance of the Spirit in all this was absolutely crucial, much as it now still is. The Holy Spirit was in charge of the whole process from beginning to end including reminding the disciples of Jesus’ words and their meanings.

Jesus knew he would be arrested and killed on a cross. This was how he managed to prophesy accurately about the forthcoming events. Still He went ahead, because He knew there was the biggest underlying purpose behind His life on earth.

Not everything was recorded (not enough space and no real need except for those determined to misconstrue). If everything were recorded about every experience of every disciple, there would be no room for the glorious prophecies, such as: Be a shepherd to your people, Lord the people you have chosen. [Micah 7:14]

We know that God chose the elect and became a shepherd to them, fulfilling the words of Micah.

It’s not passing me by, I’m having a whale of a time. I do see a lot of miserable people around and they are typically not Christians. It honestly seems to me (including experiences that I had prior to becoming christian) that the temporal things of this world do not holistically satisfy like the enduring peace that comes from a knowledge of God’s grace?

And what do you say to God when you meet?

Yes: The Lord’s unfailing love and mercy still continue, fresh as the morning sure as the sunrise. [Lamentrations 3:22,23]. Although God Himself is the creator of physics, He shows grace, love and mercy above all. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

Doug Shaver

Yes, and you're it. Everything I read by Christian apologists is evidence against that proposition. Evangelical dogma is the antithesis of grace, love, and mercy.