Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-09-2012, 12:32 PM

Ehrman certainly does not think Jesus was the King of the Jews.

The placard was, even in the context of the story, intended to be sarcastic and in keeping with similar mockery such as the crown of thorns. That Jesus was a nobody is exactly the point. It was akin to mocking a crazy homeless street preacher thinking he's the Mayor of Pittsburgh by addressing him as "your Honor," and painting the words "City Hall" on his cardboard box. It's a parody.

stephan huller · 07-09-2012, 02:05 PM

Im not so sure it was parody. When we start saying that we sound like Joe atwill. It was thought to have mystical significance. God was acting through pilate like he did when Rome destroyed Jerusalem

aa5874 · 07-09-2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Ehrman doesn't think that the gospels are accurate history. You can't bust him for something he never claimed.

Please stop this nonsense. We have better uses for our time.

Ehrman THINKS gMark is an historical source for an Historical Jesus so stop your ABSURD NONSENSE.

Please, just go and read the THRIRD CHAPTER of "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman

I am totally terrified by the blatant mis-leading information that you have presented.

Toto · 07-09-2012, 03:34 PM

Ehrman thinks that some historical information can be extracted from the gospels even though they are not historically accurate.

Do you think this is impossible? It might be, but you need to present an argument, not just "BUSTED!"

aa5874 · 07-09-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Ehrman certainly does not think Jesus was the King of the Jews.

The placard was, even in the context of the story, intended to be sarcastic and in keeping with similar mockery such as the crown of thorns. That Jesus was a nobody is exactly the point. It was akin to mocking a crazy homeless street preacher thinking he's the Mayor of Pittsburgh by addressing him as "your Honor," and painting the words "City Hall" on his cardboard box. It's a parody.

Please, stop your nonsense. Pilate was NOT mocking Jesus when he QUESTIONED him and asked him if he was the KING OF THE JEWS in the Gospels. See all the Gospels.

Please, get familiar with the trial of Jesus under Pilate as stated in the Gospels.

In the Gospels, Jesus was ACCUSED of calling himself the KING OF THE JEWS.

Jesus was NOT a scarcely known itinerant preacher in the Gospels.

Sinaiticus gMark 14.61-62

Quote:

....Again the chief priest asked him and said to him: Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62 And Jesus said: I am...

Ehrman has been BUSTED.

If Jesus did live and gMark is an historical source as Ehrman proposes, Jesus was the KING OF THE JESUS, the Prophesied Messianic Ruler.

It is ERRONEOUS that gMark Jesus was a scarcely known itinerant preacher.

Listen to the words of Peter if gMark is history.

Sinaiticus Mark 8. 29

Quote:

And he asked them: But you, who say you that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

In gMark, Jesus was the KING OF THE JEWS.

jdboy · 07-09-2012, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Ehrman certainly does not think Jesus was the King of the Jews.

The placard was, even in the context of the story, intended to be sarcastic and in keeping with similar mockery such as the crown of thorns. That Jesus was a nobody is exactly the point. It was akin to mocking a crazy homeless street preacher thinking he's the Mayor of Pittsburgh by addressing him as "your Honor," and painting the words "City Hall" on his cardboard box. It's a parody.

Please, stop your nonsense. Pilate was NOT mocking Jesus when he QUESTIONED him and asked him if he was the KING OF THE JEWS in the Gospels. See all the Gospels.

Please, get familiar with the trial of Jesus under Pilate as stated in the Gospels.

In the Gospels, Jesus was ACCUSED of calling himself the KING OF THE JEWS.

Jesus was NOT a scarcely known itinerant preacher in the Gospels.

Sinaiticus gMark 14.61-62

Ehrman has been BUSTED.

If Jesus did live and gMark is an historical source as Ehrman proposes, Jesus was the KING OF THE JESUS, the Prophesied Messianic Ruler.

It is ERRONEOUS that gMark Jesus was a scarcely known itinerant preacher.

Listen to the words of Peter if gMark is history.

Sinaiticus Mark 8. 29

Quote:

And he asked them: But you, who say you that I am? Peter answering said to him: Thou art the Christ.

In gMark, Jesus was the KING OF THE JEWS.

Yes but all this happened overnite Jesus was unknown to the public as messiah and king of jews.
He was known for at least preaching. And this is what ehrman is claiming.

I don't agree with the HJ theories. I think it's all assumption.

I have busted aa

aa5874 · 07-09-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdboy

Yes but all this happened overnite Jesus was unknown to the public as messiah and king of jews.
He was known for at least preaching. And this is what ehrman is claiming.

I don't agree with the HJ theories. I think it's all assumption.

I have busted aa

Ehrman is an INVENTOR. Jesus was WELL-KNOWN in gMark.

Examine the very FIRST chapters of the same gMark that Ehrman claims is history.

Quote:

Sinaiticus gMark 1. 28 And his fame immediately went forth everywhere into the whole surrounding country of Galilee.

Sinaitucs Mark 2 .13 And he went forth again to the sea; and all the multitude came to him, and he taught them.

Sinaiticus Mark 3. 7 And Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea; and a great multitude followed from Galilee and from Judea,

8 And from Jerusalem and from Idumea and beyond the Jordan and about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, hearing what things he did, came to him.

aa5874 · 07-10-2012, 12:08 AM

It is clear that from the very start and in every chapter of gMark up to the arrest of Jesus it is stated that he was WELL-KNOWN every where he went. And further he was known as the Messianic ruler by his disciples.

Ehrman has mis-represented gMark's Jesus story.

Examine every chapter from 1-12 and it will be claimed that there were multitudes of people, even in the thousands, that followed gMark's Jesus.

Ehrman is BUSTED.

Mark 1

Quote:

28 And his fame immediately went forth everywhere into the whole surrounding country of Galilee.

Mark 2

Quote:

13 And he went forth again to the sea; and all the multitude came to him....

Mark 3

Quote:

7 And Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea; and a great multitude followed from Galilee and from Judea,..... Jerusalem and from Idumea and beyond the Jordan and about Tyre and Sidon..

Mark 4

Quote:

1.... And there came together to him a very great multitude......

Mark 5

Quote:

21 And when Jesus had again passed over in the ship to the other side, a great multitude came together to him, and he was by the sea.

Mark 6

Quote:

33 And many saw them going and knew them, and ran thither on foot from all the cities, and outwent them.......And coming out he saw a great multitude

Mark 7

Quote:

14 And again calling the multitude to him he said to them: Hear me, all of you, and understand.

Mark 8

Quote:

1 In those days, the multitude again being great, and they having nothing to eat, he called his disciples to him

Mark 9

Quote:

15 And immediately all the multitude seeing him were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.

Mark 10

Quote:

1 And rising up he came thence into the borders of Judea and beyond the Jordan; and multitudes came together again to him....

Mark 11

Quote:

18 And the chief priests and the scribes heard, and sought how they might destroy him; for they feared him, for all the multitude were astonished at his teaching.

Mark 12

Quote:

12 And they sought to lay hold on him and feared the multitude...

Toto · 07-10-2012, 12:22 AM

aa5874: this is all quite pointless. Ehrman and most secular bible scholars think that the stories about the crowds that followed Jesus and the stories about his fame were legendary development - i.e., not true, possibly not even intended to be true. They think that the historical Jesus was an obscure nobody, but his followers elevated him to importance.

If you want to attack this position, at least understand it.

aa5874 · 07-10-2012, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

aa5874: this is all quite pointless. Ehrman and most secular bible scholars think that the stories about the crowds that followed Jesus and the stories about his fame were legendary development - i.e., not true, possibly not even intended to be true. They think that the historical Jesus was an obscure nobody, but his followers elevated him to importance.

If you want to attack this position, at least understand it.

I don't accept what you write because you have made certain statements which show you are extremely bias. Please, I had enough of your rhetoric.

I am POINTING out that Ehrman ACCEPTS gMark as an historical source and that it CONTRADICTS Ehrman' claim that Jesus was a scarcely known itinerant preacher so what you say is absurd.

Please, Christians, Fundamentalists and HJers THINK Jesus existed and other people who don't think so can point out what is WRONG with the HJ argument.

You seem to have no interest in EXPOSING the logical fallacies and heinous errors of Ehrman.

Ehrman has MIS-REPRESENTED the Jesus story and have used his IMAGINATION instead of the actual statements in the story.

It is COMPLETELY in error that the Jesus story was developed LATE based on Ehrman's OWN claim that the Pauline writings are BEFORE c 68 CE.

Ehrman's Early Pauline theory DESTROYS his LATE development argument.

Please, the purpose of these threads are for people to discuss any matter related to BC&H.

Now, in the Pauline writings, which Ehrman argues are early, the Pauline writer claimed Jesus was the Messianic ruler of the Jews, in effect, the King of the Jews.

In the gMatthew story, the Magi asked about the Birth of the King of the Jews refering to the Birth of the Christ.

This is EXTREMELY important.

The CHRIST in the NT refers to the KING of the Jews.

Examine gMatthew 2

Quote:

1 But after Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, behold, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem,

2 saying: Where is he that has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star at its rising, and have come to worship him.

All references to Jesus as Christ is the same as Jesus the King of the Jews, the Messianic ruler.

Now look at the Pauline writings which Ehrman claim are authentic.

The Pauline writers called Jesus the King of the JEWS [the Christ] the Messianic Ruler of the Jews, over 300 TIMES.

Romans 1:1 KJV

Quote:

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God...

Ehrman is BUSTED.

The Pauline Jesus was NOT a scarcely known itinerant preacher but KING of the JEWS--the Messianic ruler--Lord and Savior and Son of God.

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07-09-2012, 12:32 PM	#11
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Ehrman certainly does not think Jesus was the King of the Jews. The placard was, even in the context of the story, intended to be sarcastic and in keeping with similar mockery such as the crown of thorns. That Jesus was a nobody is exactly the point. It was akin to mocking a crazy homeless street preacher thinking he's the Mayor of Pittsburgh by addressing him as "your Honor," and painting the words "City Hall" on his cardboard box. It's a parody.

07-09-2012, 02:05 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Im not so sure it was parody. When we start saying that we sound like Joe atwill. It was thought to have mystical significance. God was acting through pilate like he did when Rome destroyed Jerusalem

07-09-2012, 03:34 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Ehrman thinks that some historical information can be extracted from the gospels even though they are not historically accurate. Do you think this is impossible? It might be, but you need to present an argument, not just "BUSTED!"

07-10-2012, 12:22 AM	#19
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	aa5874: this is all quite pointless. Ehrman and most secular bible scholars think that the stories about the crowds that followed Jesus and the stories about his fame were legendary development - i.e., not true, possibly not even intended to be true. They think that the historical Jesus was an obscure nobody, but his followers elevated him to importance. If you want to attack this position, at least understand it.

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