Fortuna

Good Evening (in my part of the world) Infidels,

In Doing a paper on the epistles amd having to go over 1 Thess, I happenned to notice this ;

My concer is with verse 18, and what it possibly refers to.

In Greek (translit'd)
de (sigma-eps) orge phthano epi autos eis telos

Jerome says it as ;
ira Dei super illos usque in finem

Both these, seem to me to say (any correction are welcome) something literally more accurately as ; (gods - J) wrath to the end.

What bother me is "wrath to the end". I had always believed that Paul's 1 Theess was supposed to be genuine Pauline, and before 70CE.

Or, am I missing Pauls meaning here ?

Any good references would be appreciated.

Diogenes the Cynic

What Greek text are you using? In my Nestle-Aland Greek NT, I get ...efqasen de ep autoV h orgh eiV teloV. ("....the wrath has come upon them at last")

Several scholars, including Burton Mack and Ray Brown have argued for 1 Thess. 2:14-16 being an interpolation. You can find some more information at Peter Kirby's page on 1 Thessalonians at Early Christian Writings (a site I can't sing enough praises for).

Toto

We had a long and somewhat heated thread on that passage here:

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 is an Interpolation (NOT) started by Vinnie.

Fortuna

Toto - Thank you for the reference. That covers quite a bit more than my limited interest in the subject, I was more concerned with 16 as referring to the consequences of the Roman-Jewish war of 70CE.

Diogenes asks;
I got the greek from the Blue letter Bible site, using the KJV translation (which is he default, I believe) and I believe the greek to be that of the TR. I see I'm going to have to read some of the FAQs to see how to use a greek font in these posts, as you did.

Also, thank you for the link to Peter Kirby's site. I am starting to use Peter's site more and more. I really should purchasehis CD or send him a donation for his excellent and valuable work.


After reading most of the thread and considering the arguments, I'm leaning more towards 16 at least being an interpolation, or as Msr Bede said, a margin note that got incorporated into the text. After weighing all the arguments and applying Occams Razor, Mr Bede's argument seems to require the least assumptions and issues necessary to explain it. This is not to suggest that Vinnie didn't present a well researched case, au contraire, il l'a écrit bien.

I noted from that thread that while three early authors make reference to it (Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian) , none of them refer to the crucial part of 16 of which I am more concerned at the moment.

Amaleq13

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