Clivedurdle

Are you quoting yourself?

http://www.journalofbiblicalstudies....rey_Gibson.htm

And is Leviathan Satan?

Clivedurdle

Shesh are these gnostic Albigensian ideas? I thought they had God as the demi urge against the Most High.

Sheshbazzar

Just telling the truth as I see it to be today Clive. I have never devoted any study to "gnostic Albigensian ideas" whatever they may be, and thus have no idea at all of what they may have consisted of.
I could look into the matter, but then some might claim by this, that they are so by justified in concluding that my views are derived from the study of such old ideas.
I have not, and therefore I will not, engage in the studies of any such old ideas.
My view which I have honestly arrived at, will stand or fall entirely upon its own merit, independent of the views of others whether they be ancient or modern.

I perceive Christianity as the embodiment of the power of The Anti-Messiah working to deceive all men through their lies, yes, even those "atheists" who even while engaged in professing their unbelief, will swallow down the spoon-fed Christian terminology that underlies and serves the ends of that entire lying religious system.
They feed the unwary with the polluted bread of their unclean words, and their unclean words come back through the lips of the undiscerning who know not to put a difference between that which is profane, and between that which is "set apart".
Such thinking themselves wise and clever, ever ignorantly lending their lips into a service of they know not what.

There is not a Power to be found on earth that better fits the profile of The Satan and his minions, than that icon "Jesus Christ" and his lying and deluded followers.
You know they have lied and murdered "in his name", one only need open eyes to see them for that power of evil that they really are, always have been, and will be, until.

Joan of Bark

Just a guess here, but I imagine the combining of all these names into just one unholy being probably occured in medievel Europe, when the Church realized that having a single enemy was psychologically more conducive to fervent belief.

ohmi

Ezek 28 identifies Satan [as the serpent in the garden] with the [left-hand, sinister] covering cherub at the very throne of God, contrasted with Jesus at the right-hand - continues with the manifestation of Satan [as the antichrist, one in place of Christ] and his mortal death for blasphemy - this explains the passage earlier about the cherubim :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

The 'lion' represents the period of power which both Jesus and first Satan wield [in prophecy of the future] , and , more interesting perhaps, the 'eagle' represents their translation to spirit , correlating with assertons in the NT that Satan is indeed the 'prodigal son' of God and will bow to Jesus in the end, confess to God :-

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Sheshbazzar

Ezekiel 28 is a denouncement of TYRE and of its ruler, as is clear by reading the preceding chapters, for example Ezekiel 26:1-12
You are "reading into the text" of Ezekiel 28 your christian theological ideas which the text does not actually support.
There is no mention at all to be found there of "Satan" or of any "serpent in the garden". The name "Jesus" is also conspicuously and entirely lacking.

Note above that "Tyrus" is to be defeated by Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon which would be quite silly;
If "Tyrus" was really "Satan", would that make "Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon" to be "Jesus"? :Cheeky:
But I am willing to concede that your "Jesus" really IS the king of your present Babylon.

No "Satan", no "serpent", no "christ", no "antichrist", and no "Jesus" are anywhere mentioned in those passages that you are "theologically" abusing.

ohmi

What king of Tyre ever was in Eden , or walked amongst the stones of fire at the throne of God , as Ezekiel states in chapter 28 ?

Clivedurdle

When was Ezekiel written?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

(Bit like V2s in WW1?)

badger3k

I thought that a lot of the current "Satan" et al mythology arose with the development of the demonology stuff in the middle ages. I can't think of the correct terms for it, but all the stuff with the Seal of Soloman and the like. It may have been Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah, Alchemy, or something else entirely. It's been a long week and the name of the tradition escapes me, but maybe my rambling will let somebody else know what I mean.

Sheshbazzar

Taking it one step at a time. In Ezekiel 28:2 the text tells us that it is being addressed specifically to a "man",
"Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] El, I sit [in] the seat of Elohim, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man"
So right off we are informed that the one being rebuked is a "MAN" not a "fallen angel," nor a "serpent".
It was common in the ancient world for the kings of nations to lay claim to the attributes of being the "god" (El) of the peoples, and were so regarded and worshipped. The king of Tyre, boastful and proud, differed little from any other ancient monarch, he was an "adversary" (little "satan") to the political interests of Israel, but was by no means a greater "adversary" than any other similar monarch, and was not the great "Satan" of the "Old" and NT.
In 28:3 and 4 it is pointed out how this king has accumulated silver and gold and riches, (a common practice to most monarchs) which is a further indication that the subject, The king of Tyrus, was a flesh and blood ruler, operating in the material world and accumulating material goods.
The true "Satan" of The Scriptures is a "spirit" and is immaterial, not flesh and blood, (though often embodied within men) and is not subject to death as are men, yet we are told in verses 28:7-10 that;

7. Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.

9. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] Elohim? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no El, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10. Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith Adonay Yahweh.

The language is often plural as not just the king of Tyre would be slain but also a significant portion of his political retinue and army.

It ought to be obvious by now that your theology is at odds with what the text tells us.
The poetic language used is hyperbolic throughout verses 12-19 as to how great the king of Tyre had it, how blessed, successful, and favored he had formerly been, but how his pride would soon be vanquished.
Again, we are specifically informed by the text that;
" I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." (v.17) Hmm, other kings will see his physical body laid out on the ground (mortality)
"therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."(v.18)
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror,and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.
A hyperbolic description of the defeat and demise of a physical and earthly ruler, the king of Tyre.
Now contrast that with what the Bible actually and clearly has to say about the end of "Satan", The Liar, and "Accuser", that old "serpent", the "Deceiver", "Dragon", and the "Devil", A Spiritual being, whose fate is NOT to ever to die like a man, or ever to be defeated in any physical battle by men, or be observed by kings as a dead body laid out on the earth, or "devourd" by fire and "brought to ashes upon the earth" (as the king of Tyre is in Ezekiel) but;

"and The Devil that deceived them (still around, right up to the end) was cast into The Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where The Beast, and The False Prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER" (Rev. 20:10)
Which must be understood to be intended to indicate that "Satan" shall endure, though in fire, and continue to be some "more" for some considerable period that is well beyond the end of the present order of things.
Your fabricated "christian theological" "understanding" not only abuses The Tanaka of the Jews, but is also contrary to the very things that the "Christian New Testament Scriptures" declare.