spin

Helpmabob, I get the idea that you will avoid almost anything you can to proselytise. This means that I don't think you can even be honest with yourself and show as objectively as you can that what you believe has a core that is substantial as against the schizophrenic whose core is not related to the world we know and share knowledge of.

You have avoided dealing with the evidence that the bible is not an accurate record of anything, containing many problems for inerrantsts and your sidestepping of them is a tacit acknowledgment of those problems.

I suspect that you will continue to assume your conclusions and treat the bible as the word of god because of your schizophrenic-like commitment to messages you receive from beyond the reality of this world. As you have no objective way to validate this received notion of an otherworldly communicator, you have no way to validate any of your beliefs.

Our task on this forum is to confront the material to be discussed with as much of a scholarly approach as possible. We cannot simply accept things on authority. We need to know the source of the knowledge rather than who said it. What is the logic, how does the argument work, what leads one to believe that, etc. I see no evidence of you adhering to the task. This makes me wonder why you are writing on this forum at all.

(No. The text indicates that the disciples didn't know.)

And you are fantasticating about things that you cannot know about.

You continue to claim to know what was in the head of the character. That's a special kind of mindreading.

That doesn't change the fact that Jesus's prayer in Gethsemane was recorded although there was no-one present to record it.

We who? And (without assuming what you cannot objectively demonstrate) know how?

What evidence, you know that will demonstrate to a non-committed observer, do you have?

Is that why you come here to bleed?

Funny, I've seen lots of miserable christians. People riddled with guilt, unable to enjoy life, unble to talk meaningfully to most people.

It just goes to show that pie in the sky makes you high. I've met all sorts of junkies in my life. While they're on the drug things are ok.

I asked you a question that needed no further data to make the question meaningful. You still, like the schizophrenic, have these entities you cannot show to anyone. If you can't get past that stage, all your words on the subject are meaningless.


spin

Doug Shaver

That comment made me think.

In your opinion, when I study the Bible, which of the following approaches should I take?

1. Assume the Bible is true.
2. Assume the Bible is untrue.
3. Assume nothing about whether the Bible is true or false.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Helpmabob: Assuming that God has the ability to predict the future, if it is God’s intention to let people know that he can predict the future, why has he gone out of his way to make it appear to billions of people that he cannot predict the future? If God can predict the future, he could easily prove it to everyone, so it is not likely that it is his intention to prove to everyone that he can predict the future. How does his refusal to prove to everyone that he can predict the future help him or mankind? If God can predict the future, he should use that ability to help mankind. For instance, he should have let people on the Gulf Coast know that he was going to create Hurricane Katrina and send it to New Orleans.

I asked you a question, and you answered me with a question. Why was that, because you are not confident of your arguments? The simple truth is that non-Christians receive just as many tangible benefits as Christians do, often more, including some evil non-Christians who never become Christians, which proves that either it is useless for Christians to ask God for tangible benefits because there is not a correlation between asking for them and receiving them, or that God does not exist. If God does not exist, how would the distribution of tangible benefits be any different than it is now? The correct answer is, not any different at all. Do you have any evidence that God has ever given an amputee a new limb? Well of course you don’t. Why do you suppose that God discriminates against amputees?

What specific tangible benefit can you ask God for and be assured that you will receive? If you have an example, whatever your example is, surely you are aware that I can provide a lot of evidence of Christians who asked God for the same tangible benefit but did not receive it.

Do you really believe that your little one and two line replies will ever convince anyone of anything at this forum? Many if not most of the non-Christians at this forum know the Bible as well or better than you do, so quoting the Bible will not do you any good.

I would never hurt people like God does, and yet you question my character. Shame on you. If I had God's power, I would create a much better world than God created, and I would be much more appreciated than God is.

The evidence does not support your claim that God is loving and merciful. Consider the following:

1 - The Bible says that killing people is wrong, but God kills people with hurricanes, including babies.

2 - God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God’s justice, requires it. No merciful, moral, loving being would ever endorse eternal punishment without parole.

3 - God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11.

4 - God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5.

5 - One million people died of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians. Why did God refuse to give food to those people? James says that if a man refuses to give food to hungry people, he is vain, and his faith is dead. This means that God is vain, and that he is a hypocrite. If giving food to hungry people is a worthy goal, it is a worthy goal for humans AND for God.

6 - God refuses to protect women from rapists. He refuses to protect people from having automobile accidents that are not their fault.

7 - God kills innocent animals.

8 - God provides information to some people who he knows will reject it, but withholds it from some people who he knows will accept it if they are aware of it. Why is that? Surely God is able to convince more people to people Christians but refuses to do so. It is a question of how badly he wants people to go to heaven and not to hell.

It is not possible to reject a God unless you know that he exists. If the God of the Bible exists, the majority of the people in the world are not aware of it. Under our legal system, a man can be punished for breaking a law that he is not aware of, but no man can (or should) be sentenced to life in prison or death for breaking a law that he is not aware of. Millions of people are not certain whether or not at least one being exists who can instantly create a planet. If God has the power to do that, he could easily show up and demonstrate to everyone that he can do it. If he did do it, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. It is question of how badly God wants people to go to heaven, and not to hell. Logically, spiritual AND tangible evidence are much more convincing than spiritual evidence alone. That is just plain old common sense. Many people would become Christians if God provided them with additional tangible evidence. In those cases, people reject Christianity out of ignorance of the facts, not out of rejecting what they know are the facts. I am not aware of any skeptic in the world who would not like to be 100% certain whether or not there is at least on being in the universe who is able to instantly create planets.

If you want to convince people that you exist, the last thing that you would do is require faith. Requiring faith greatly limits the number of people who will believe that you exist. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish. That is obviously a lie.

9 - In the first century, no one who died in China had heard the Gospel message, at least as far as we know. That means that it is quite likely that Jesus did not give the disciples the Great Commission. Human effort alone is a poor means of spreading the supposedly most important and helpful message in history. The Gospel message was spread by the grossly inefficient prevailing means of communication, transportation, printing, and translation, which is exactly what was to be expected if God does not exist. If you discovered a cure for cancer, if you were able to immediately provide it to everyone in the world, would you do so? Do you believe that spreading the Gospel message is more important than discovering and disseminating a cure for cancer?

10 - If God were mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently than he acts now. The correct answer is, not any differently than he acts now. No mentally competent being helps people and kills people, including babies, and gives food to hungry people, and allow hungry people to starve to death.

11 - Thanks to the illogical and confusing way that the Bible was written, there isn't any methodology of interpretation that millions of Christians will not protest. Martin Luther did not believe that the book of revelation belongs in the Bible. Calvinism is widely contested in the Christian church. Pascal believed that only Roman Catholics will go to heaven. Millions of Christians do not like Pascal's Wager. John Calvin endorsed the killing of Christians who disagreed with his religious teachings. Inerrancy is widely disputed in the Christian church. Millions of Christians do not believe that hell exists in the afterlife. For about 90% of the time since Christianity was founded, the majority of Christians endorsed slavery, colonization, and the subjugation of women. The Church of Christ does not believe that musical instruments are appropriate in church. The Roman Catholic Bible has books in it that Protestant Bibles do not have. Bible commentaries sometimes give different interpretations of Scriptures. The Bible has two different versions of the death of Judas. It gives contradictory accounts of the visits to the tomb. Among other skeptics, Farrell Till has clearly demonstrated contradictions regarding the visits to the tomb. Christianity has been a mess ever since it was founded. What else should anyone expect from a God who inspired the writing of such a confusing book, left town, and never returned to tell Christians how to properly interpret it? Christians are much too gullible and ignorant to sort out these issues for themselves. God knows this, but he doesn't want to intervene and help Christians interpret the Bible correctly. If God exists, he should show up and help Christians sort out these issues, but don't count on it. God is a "hands off" God.

Coleslaw

bumping for mdd344