Nectaris

No, it just makes the situation more confusing

Thanks for the post, DrJim, I appreciate all the info.

Dave

DrJim

Magus55,
Please demonstrate the antiquity of that Psalm and that David wrote anything. The tradition makes him a poet of renown but the tradition cannot be the proof of its own accuracy. In the very least, point to a single biblical verse written on any manuscript, inscription etc. which dates to the time of the alleged 11th century psalmist. Can you at least prove that the language of the Psalm is late 2nd Millenium Hebrew and not mid first millenium by comparison with non-biblical writings?

Magus55

Sorry, but I don't see how you can get that this verse is referring to dogs piercing his hands and feet ( first of all, what are the odds of a dog biting through the hands and the feet). The word dog also based on the Hebrew lexicon, does not always mean a literal dog. Dog seems like a good descriptor and metaphor for the ravenous crowd surrounding Jesus yelling for Him to be crucified. ( do remember that Psalms is very poetic and metaphoric). Also notice, that that verse compares the dogs to the assembly of the wicked. Dogs are an assembly of the wicked? No, but a hateful crowd of sinners wanting Jesus dead is. Also notice the reference to bulls surrounding him. Because bulls are so commonly hearding in hoards in the desert... Again, sounds like a metaphor for a crowd.

Psalm 22:14 refers to being poured out like water, and joints being dislocated. Jesus was speared through the side, and water ran from his body. Hanging on a cross being supported on nails, and the body being fatigued would probably dislocate some joints. Dogs don't dislocate joints.

"tongue cleaveth to my jaw" - sounds like a descriptor for being dehydrated - common in crucifixion's for hanging in the heat.

"I may tell all my bones" - referring to all bones still being in tact. Why the need for this statment when dogs don't break a humans bones in half? However, Jesus not having his legs broken like in most crucifixions would fit this statement.

"They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. " -Dogs hand out garments to each other? Sounds more like this is referring to the townspeople bartering Jesus' clothes.

As I know you will cast all this off, and still stick to your absurd notion that this verse is referring to a bunch of actual dogs and bulls, this will fall on deaf ears, but I do believe your argument fails completely.

Ebonmuse

I think two things should be noted here: first and most importantly, Psalm 22 is not a prophecy. It does not say that any of the things it discusses will happen to someone else at some point in the future; it says that the woes it discusses are happening now, to the author of the psalm. Of course, Christian apologists promote this absurd idea called "double fulfillment" in which bits and pieces of OT verses describing what is happening in the nation of Israel at that moment are alleged to also cast ahead hundreds of years into the future and echo obscure moments from the life of Jesus, but such a doctrine is totally foreign to the Old Testament itself - the OT verses that are intended to be prophecies of the future are clearly phrased and stated as such. Some verses in the OT do parallel events from the NT, this is true; the more likely explanation for this is that the NT writers constructed their story from them, using an established Jewish exegetical technique called midrash, which consists of lifting verses out of their original context and weaving them together to tell a new story.

Secondly, the word translated as "pierced" in the KJV and other Christian Bibles does not mean "pierced"; several other posters have brought this up. My best understanding is that it actually is Hebrew for "like a lion". This fits with the chiastic structure of the psalm and the general metaphor of animals surrounding the psalmist. Paul Tobin's site has an excellent article on this:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/pierce.html

Hope that helps.

dado

the early psalms are attributed to david by Jewish tradition - the same tradition that is quite clear about the passage having nothing to do with crucifixion (Rashi - it's a mauling of Isaiah 38:13). if you're going to pick and choose which extra-scriptural "facts" to use, you also need to explain away the ones you don't use.

Ebonmuse

Who said this was referring to dogs piercing the hands and feet? On the contrary, if you read the psalm, you will notice that the writer, despite his great fear and imminent distress, is not actually being physically harmed. Instead, he declares his faith that Yahweh will deliver him from these troubles (22:19-21) and in fact the psalm explicitly says that he does (22:24), which alone puts quite a crimp in the interpretation of it as a prophecy of the crucifixion. And again, note that the correct translation is "like a lion", not "pierced".

That is not what it refers to. The dogs can be metaphorically identified with the "assembly of the wicked" that is mentioned in 22:16; the intent of mentioning dogs, bulls and lions surrounding the psalmist is to symbolize the atmosphere of enclosure, fear and terror in which he finds himself. This is still not a prophecy of the crucifixion, and you have given no reason why we should think otherwise.

Jeremy Pallant

Just a little more information, but not all bibles actually use the word "pierced" in verse 16. For example, the The New Revised Standard Version renders that verse as follows:


For it to be a prophecy of a crucifixion therefore depends upon which version of the Bible a christian reads.

rlogan

100%.

I don't know what a "dog" is to you. Mine can crush bone like it was matchsticks.

Gregg

OH, shush! Certain people must maintain their fantasies at ALL costs. Thus, only microscopic lapdogs are dogs. Any dog big enough to bite one hard enough to break the skin is simply not a dog.

Sheshbazzar

Interesting when compared the location of the wounds as recorded in Lk.24:39-40 and St.Jn.20:20-27, was it the writers that did'nt know how to crucify? or was it the crucifiers that did'nt know how to crucify?