Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-03-2012, 02:08 PM

Increasingly, it seems that this forum is recycling the same old arguments. Let's see what the professionals and high-level amateurs of the SBL are talking about:

John, Jesus and History

Charles Gieschen, Concordia Theological Seminary - Fort Wayne

Quote:

The Divine Name in the Gospel of John: A Link to the Historical Jesus?

An intriguing historical link between the Jesus traditions in the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John is the use of “I am” (ego eimi) in an absolute construction as a self-disclosure formula (Matt 14:27; 28:20; Mark 6:50; 13:6; 14:62; Luke 21:8; 22:70; 24:39; John 4:26, 6:20; 8:24, 28, 53; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8). Helpful research has been done in locating the background for the use of this formula in YHWH’s self disclosure formulae as found at the conclusion of Deuteronomy (32:39) and in the latter third of Isaiah (41:4; 43:10, 13, 25; 46:4; 48:12; 51:12; 52:6). Less research has been done on the relationship between the use of this formula in John and Jesus’ self-understanding in this Gospel as the Son who shares the divine name of the Father (i.e., the Tetragrammaton). This paper will demonstrate that the Gospel of John provides evidence for a much broader use of this formula by the historical Jesus and that this usage is closely related to the testimony that Jesus shares the divine name, a tradition which may also be very early and have its origin in Jesus

Lena Einhorn (no affiliation)

Quote:

Jesus and the “Egyptian Prophet”

Unlike the Synoptic Gospels, John 18:3 and 18:12 state that Jesus on the Mount of Olives was confronted by a speira – a Roman cohort of 500 to 1000 soldiers. This suggestion of a battle preceding Jesus’ arrest is reminiscent of an event described by Josephus in the 50s (A.J. 20.169-172; B.J. 2.261-263), involving the so called “Egyptian Prophet”. This messianic leader – who had previously spent time “in the wilderness” – has “advised the multitude… to go along with him to the Mount of Olives”, where he “would show them from hence how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down”. Procurator Felix, however, sent a cohort of soldiers to the Mount of Olives, where they defeated the “Egyptian Prophet”. Although the twenty-year time difference would seem to make all comparisons futile, there are other coinciding aspects: The preceding messianic leader named by Josephus, Theudas (A.J. 20.97-99), shares distinct characteristics with John the Baptist: Like John, Theudas gathered his followers by the river Jordan, and, like John, he was arrested by the authorities, and they “cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem”. Curiously, although the names of dignitaries may differ, comparing the New Testament accounts with Josephus’ accounts of the mid-40s to early 50s in several respects appears to be more productive than a comparison with his accounts of the 30s: It is in this later period, not the 30s, that Josephus describes the activity and crucifixion of robbers (absent between 6 and 44 C.E.), a conflict between Samaritans and Jews, two co-reigning high priests, a procurator killing Galileans, an attack on someone named Stephen outside Jerusalem, and at least ten more seemingly parallel events. Importantly, these are parallels that, judging by Josephus, appear to be absent in the 30s. The significance of this will be discussed.

Historical Jesus

James Crossley, University of Sheffield

Quote:

Jesus and the World Turned Upside Down…and Back Again

This paper will seek to locate those Jesus traditions which point to forthcoming social change within the broader contexts of histories of agrarian social upheaval. Perhaps fittingly on the fortieth anniversary of Christopher Hill’s The World Turned Upside Down, particular attention will be paid to the millenarian, utopian, quasi-egalitarian, and reversal ideals which have reflected and helped generate social and historical change, as well as (seemingly paradoxically) providing the potential for a reaffirmation of the traditional power structures. It will be seen that the historical Jesus in many ways fits into this pattern, assisted by his message of both liberation and dominance present throughout his teaching and in their reinterpretations. Arguments concerning historical authenticity and inauthenticity of the Jesus traditions will be addressed, but it should become clear that the arguments presented here work on a general level in that traditions about social upheaval and change are present in the earliest tradition whilst not requiring the necessary plausibility of any of the major positions in the old disputes about Jesus as apocalyptic or eschatological prophet, irrespective of their seemingly obvious relevancy. Instead of endless attempts at finding our favourite Jesus and how important Jesus-the-individual was, this approach will hopefully point to ways in which social historical explanations of the Jesus movement and Christian origins can be pursued without the relentless reliance on the nineteenth century Great Man view of history so embedded in historical Jesus scholarship.

Toto · 11-03-2012, 02:15 PM

Also from the Historical Jesus section:

Anthony Le Donne, University of the Pacific

Quote:

Jesus and the Problem of Epochal Romanticism

This essay will situate Wrede, Schweitzer and other early adherents of the “Jesus as Apocalyptic Prophet” thesis within German Romanticism and suggest that this view of history defined much of the vernacular for modern Jesus studies. It will then examine an often overlooked element of the Jesus tradition, what this study will call Jesus’ “greater than” rhetoric. In doing so, the author will (largely) avoid the terms “prophet,” “apocalyptic,” and “eschatological” for heuristic purposes. Thus this essay will explore the possibility of epochal aggrandizement in the Jesus tradition without hinging the notion on the vernacular of Romanticism.

Pieter Craffert, University of South Africa

Quote:

Apocalypticism as world view and linguistic metaphor: Attempting a cognitive approach to Jesus’ utopian language

The character of Jesus’ apocalypticism has been analyzed and debated since the birth of modern biblical studies. Dividing lines have been established and the trenches are dug deep. Either Jesus is regarded as an apocalyptic prophet or as a subversive sage. There seems to be no way out of the present stalemate. On the one hand, many kingdom sayings apply to social and economic circumstances in the present; on the other hand, apocalyptic expressions relate, at least on the surface, to cosmic upheavals and a world beyond. Solutions have been sought by declaring one or another strand as authentic. Both wisdom sayings and apocalyptic language are, however, deeply anchored in the early strata of the Jesus tradition. The crucial issue is not whether Jesus was an “apocalyptic prophet”, but what “apocalyptic” means. The distinction between apocalypticism as a literary genre and as an eschatological understanding of history is commonplace, even if not always upheld. Discussions about the metaphorical character of apocalyptic language are in no way new. These distinctions and discussions have nevertheless had surprisingly little influence on debates about the apocalyptic strand in the Jesus tradition. The present paper is an attempt to revisit this field of discussion, by analyzing key passages from the Jesus tradition with newer tools from cognitive metaphor theory and conceptual blending theory, and with a glance at the social role and function of utopias. It will be argued that Jesus’ apocalypticism can be understood as expressing a concrete vision of a reformed society, without necessarily expecting literal cosmic upheavals and the end of the world.

maryhelena · 11-04-2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Increasingly, it seems that this forum is recycling the same old arguments. Let's see what the professionals and high-level amateurs of the SBL are talking about:

Historical Jesus

James Crossley, University of Sheffield

Quote:

Jesus and the World Turned Upside Down…and Back Again

This paper will seek to locate those Jesus traditions which point to forthcoming social change within the broader contexts of histories of agrarian social upheaval. Perhaps fittingly on the fortieth anniversary of Christopher Hill’s The World Turned Upside Down, particular attention will be paid to the millenarian, utopian, quasi-egalitarian, and reversal ideals which have reflected and helped generate social and historical change, as well as (seemingly paradoxically) providing the potential for a reaffirmation of the traditional power structures. It will be seen that the historical Jesus in many ways fits into this pattern, assisted by his message of both liberation and dominance present throughout his teaching and in their reinterpretations. Arguments concerning historical authenticity and inauthenticity of the Jesus traditions will be addressed, but it should become clear that the arguments presented here work on a general level in that traditions about social upheaval and change are present in the earliest tradition whilst not requiring the necessary plausibility of any of the major positions in the old disputes about Jesus as apocalyptic or eschatological prophet, irrespective of their seemingly obvious relevancy. Instead of endless attempts at finding our favourite Jesus and how important Jesus-the-individual was, this approach will hopefully point to ways in which social historical explanations of the Jesus movement and Christian origins can be pursued without the relentless reliance on the nineteenth century Great Man view of history so embedded in historical Jesus scholarship.

Social upheaval? Perhaps a much more fruitful avenue of research than the continuing circular arguments from the NT. One does need to get outside the box of the NT if progress is to be made in the historicist/ahistoricist debate.

However, Crossley notwithstanding (re his negative view of the 'Great Man view of history idea in connection with the gospel story) it is people who move history along. Social upheaval requires foot-soldiers alongside philosophical thinkers. That there was no gospel JC figure does not rule out the possibility that historical figures were relevant to the creation of that story. Pseudo-history, to be able to make any mark at all, needs to reflect, however dim that reflection, historical realities. No reflection and there is no pseudo-history - there is only imagination, there is simply fiction. 'Salvation history', prophetic history, requires a base in historical reality. The intellectual philosophizing, the 'star dust', must settle on terra-firma - it must settle upon historical realities to be of any consequence for OT prophetic interpretations.

Crossley should be careful he does not throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Clivedurdle · 11-04-2012, 03:24 AM

Quote:

the historical Jesus

How is this term defined in the first quote in the OP? Thought provoking use of language - is not "Jesus of Nazareth" the accepted name of this character?

Clivedurdle · 11-04-2012, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Either Jesus is regarded as an apocalyptic prophet or as a subversive sage. There seems to be no way out of the present stalemate

If you have two choices, take the third!

Why are we not looking at a high Christ, the Son of the Living God, Emmanuel, the coming of the new heaven and earth, and what we see in these apocalyptic and sage images is only what different people bring to their Christ? Loads of editing and debating and of course you find both views and more in the documents!

I am very optimistic about the above comments, a slow drip drip is wearing things away, it will not be long before a senior academic asks what happens if we start with the idea of god becoming man, or man becoming god?

Vorkosigan · 11-04-2012, 06:19 AM

"I am" as marker of the historical Jesus. It's almost comical.

outhouse · 11-04-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Why are we not looking at a high Christ, the Son of the Living God,

living roman emporers were called "the son of god"

lets focus on the jew walking through galilee trying to survive roman occupation, but failed finding himself on a cross

outhouse · 11-04-2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

"I am" as marker of the historical Jesus. It's almost comical.

that i'd agree

outhouse · 11-04-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Increasingly, it seems that this forum is recycling the same old arguments. Let's see what the professionals and high-level amateurs of the SBL are talking about:

Historical Jesus

James Crossley, University of Sheffield

Social upheaval? Perhaps a much more fruitful avenue of research than the continuing circular arguments from the NT. One does need to get outside the box of the NT if progress is to be made in the historicist/ahistoricist debate.

However, Crossley notwithstanding (re his negative view of the 'Great Man view of history idea in connection with the gospel story) it is people who move history along. Social upheaval requires foot-soldiers alongside philosophical thinkers. That there was no gospel JC figure does not rule out the possibility that historical figures were relevant to the creation of that story. Pseudo-history, to be able to make any mark at all, needs to reflect, however dim that reflection, historical realities. No reflection and there is no pseudo-history - there is only imagination, there is simply fiction. 'Salvation history', prophetic history, requires a base in historical reality. The intellectual philosophizing, the 'star dust', must settle on terra-firma - it must settle upon historical realities to be of any consequence for OT prophetic interpretations.

Crossley should be careful he does not throw the baby out with the bathwater....

yes Social upheaval.

the jewish governement was corrupted by by the roman power and influence.

jews were either at war, or the brink of it, all through jesus life and shortly there after.

the kingdom of god, was nothing more then a description of the roman hammer coming down on jews, and shortl after jesus death, the roman hammer fell hard on the jews.

this is one of your better post, your coming around. do you think there was a jewish leader who fought the governement and taxes and ended up on a cross???

Quote:

JC figure does not rule out the possibility that historical figures were relevant to the creation of that story. Pseudo-history, to be able to make any mark at all, needs to reflect, however dim that reflection, historical realities

JoeWallack · 11-05-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

"I am" as marker of the historical Jesus. It's almost comical.

I think "I am". Therefore, I existed.

J

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11-04-2012, 06:19 AM	#6
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	"I am" as marker of the historical Jesus. It's almost comical.

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