Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-11-2009, 11:25 AM

Quote:

4- Let me now move to the history of Christianity, I always find it interesting that some life events of Jesus and the Egyptian god 'Horus' resemble each other. Do you think that followers of Jesus might have integrated into his biography the legends of Horus?

No. And I suspect you may be a victim of that awful pseudodocumentary Zeitgeist (or what I suspect may be its source, Tom Harpur's book The Pagan Christ). If so, then almost everything you've heard is false or undemonstrated.

First, the whole notion confuses Horus with Osiris. There are no ancient texts about Horus that parallel Jesus at all, except perhaps in some aspects of their nativities, but even then only in the most distant and indirect and thus wholly uninteresting ways. We have more parallels between Osiris and Jesus, and I've discussed some of them. But they are not very important overall and hard to interpret. For example: Osiris parallel

Second, there are far more direct and interesting parallels between Jesus and Romulus, for example, that are far more relevant as Romulus was the founder of the Roman empire that Christianity was contrasting itself to, and Romulus' story was annually celebrated with ceremonies and plays, so it's immediately obvious why Christians would transvalue the Romulus story and where they would be getting their information. It's wholly inexplicable why they would use Horus for this, or where they would be getting their information about him. Osiris at least makes some sense, as the key resurrected savior in one of Christianity's strongest competitors: the mysteries of Isis. But even then, it's hard to explain why they would pick that savior, rather than, say, Hercules, or Castor, or Asclepius, or what have you. Parallelomania is a fallacy one must avoid. You have to be very careful about how you interpret apparent parallels, and how you intend to explain them. You're theory must make sense of the whole body of evidence, and in context. There has to be a reason for those parallels to be there (if they are), and why those and not others (just as there has to be a reason for the differences, of which there are many).

That said, I actually agree that Jesus' story was constructed from mythic archetypes of the time. . . .

There is more of interest at that link.

wordy · 12-14-2009, 03:12 AM

Romolus? Who was that then?

avi · 12-14-2009, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

Romolus? Who was that then?

Romulus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus
avi

wordy · 12-14-2009, 04:26 AM

Thanks I wonder why they gave up on that fellow then.

what did Jesus have that Romulus lacked?

Solo · 12-14-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

Thanks I wonder why they gave up on that fellow then.

what did Jesus have that Romulus lacked?

Mother Mary instead of wolf's teats ? :huh:

Jiri

wordy · 12-14-2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

Thanks I wonder why they gave up on that fellow then.

what did Jesus have that Romulus lacked?

Mother Mary instead of wolf's teats ? :huh:

Jiri

Well that was funny.

I mean what was it about Jesus that made him ideal as a warrior for God to conquer all of Europe and half the world later.

why did the Persian or Greek or Roman pagan gods fail to be that successful?

lpetrich · 12-14-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

I mean what was it about Jesus that made him ideal as a warrior for God to conquer all of Europe and half the world later.

why did the Persian or Greek or Roman pagan gods fail to be that successful?

Because most pagans did not claim that their religion and their religion alone is the One True Religion and that everybody else in the world must be made to believe in it and practice it -- or else.

But note that Xianity has not had a 100% track record of victory. It lost VERY big in the Middle East after the rise of Islam, which has similar pretensions to absolute and exclusive truth and a similar desire to convert everybody.

Some liberal Xians may quarrel with this portrayal of Xianity, but that's what the more traditionalist versions of Xianity have been like, whether they like it or not. They may whine that that's not True Xianity, but theologians in the past would have settled that question by making a very special bonfire in their honor.

Switch89 · 12-14-2009, 12:47 PM

I've written an article examining some of the pagan parallels, though I have no idea whether Carrier would endorse it or not (I have a feeling he would endorse at least some of it, since some of it was gleaned from his writings!).

hylidae · 12-14-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Mother Mary instead of wolf's teats ? :huh:

Jiri

Well that was funny.

I mean what was it about Jesus that made him ideal as a warrior for God to conquer all of Europe and half the world later.

why did the Persian or Greek or Roman pagan gods fail to be that successful?

I'm guessing because the Jesus story was political from early on. Honestly, I'm starting to think the success of any religious movement is directly related to how many people are fighting about it.

spamandham · 12-14-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by worldly

I mean what was it about Jesus that made him ideal as a warrior for God to conquer all of Europe and half the world later.

That isn't what Carrier is saying here. He's talking about a mythical founder. For Rome, the mythical founder is Romulus. For Christianity, it's Jesus, and the idea of putting a face on the foundation of the myth was probably influenced by the annual Romulus celebrations that early Christians would certainly have been exposed to.

(...and probably even more so, IMHO, by the Jewish mythical founder, Abraham)

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12-14-2009, 03:12 AM	#2
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Romolus? Who was that then?

12-14-2009, 04:26 AM	#4
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Thanks I wonder why they gave up on that fellow then. what did Jesus have that Romulus lacked?

12-14-2009, 12:47 PM	#8
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	I've written an article examining some of the pagan parallels, though I have no idea whether Carrier would endorse it or not (I have a feeling he would endorse at least some of it, since some of it was gleaned from his writings!).

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