Freethought & Rationalism Archive

loinburger · 03-06-2005, 02:14 PM

I'd always assumed that the Bible was agnostic on the (il)legitimacy of communism/socialism, but the Patrick Henry College FAQ piqued my curiosity. Specifically, this paragraph:

Quote:

Private Property. As God's image-bearers with dominion, and stewardship responsibilities, over the remainder of creation, men and women have the inalienable right to own and manage their own property, subject to government regulation only in the unusual situation where the rights of others are endangered. Government systems such as communism and socialism, which give the government primary control over property, are a violation of God's creation order.

Is there any support for this claim, or is it just fundie ass-crackery?

Edit: Apologies if this has already been discussed -- I ran a forum search for BC&H threads with "communism" in their titles and drew a blank.

S.C.Carlson · 03-06-2005, 02:18 PM

How is Acts 4:34-35 handled?

loinburger · 03-06-2005, 02:30 PM

I don't see a reference to it, so I'm guessing that it's handled by ignoring it. However, they do have a reference to Acts 5:1-4 in support of their assertion that

Quote:

government's first duty is to protect the life, property and other God-ordained, inalienable rights of the citizenry

which I can only assume is used in support of property rights.

Toto · 03-06-2005, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loinburger

I don't see a reference to it, so I'm guessing that it's handled by ignoring it. However, they do have a reference to Acts 5:1-4 in support of their assertion that

Quote:

government's first duty is to protect the life, property and other God-ordained, inalienable rights of the citizenry

which I can only assume is used in support of property rights.

I know that the Religious Right was un-Biblical and intellectually corrupt, but to use this passage as support for the rights of private property would only indicate a sick mind. The early Christians described in Acts practiced a sort of voluntary communism (not state sponsored, of course). Acts 5:1-4 describes how a certain Ananais tried to keep some of his own property for himself and not give it to the commune; as a result he was struck down dead.

But I checked the FAQ, and they are not using it to support capitalism, they are using it to support capital punishment:

Quote:

government's first duty is to protect the life, property and other God-ordained, inalienable rights of the citizenry; (Genesis 9:6; Exodus 20:13; Acts 5:1-4; Ezekiel 46:18; Genesis 34:10; Luke 10:7; I Timothy 5:18; Romans 4:4)

Gen 9:6

Quote:

"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Ex 20:13 is the commandment "You shall not murder."

Ezekiel 46:18

Quote:

The prince must not take any of the inheritance of the people, driving them off their property. He is to give his sons their inheritance out of his own property, so that none of my people will be separated from his property.'

Genesis 34:

Quote:

8 But Hamor said to them, "My son Shechem has his heart set on your daughter. Please give her to him as his wife. 9 Intermarry with us; give us your daughters and take our daughters for yourselves. 10 You can settle among us; the land is open to you. Live in it, trade in it, and acquire property in it."

Luke 10:7 contains "for the worker deserves his wages."

I Timothy 5: 18

Quote:

For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,�?[b] and “The worker deserves his wages.�?[c]

Rom 4:4

Quote:

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation

The quote from Ezekiel is about as close as you will get to support for private property in the Bible, I suspect. Most of the rest of these are taken out of context.

The whole exercise is a bit silly. The societies described in the Bible did not have the sort of techology that is the basis for any sort of modern economy, any more than they had democracy or truly free enterprise. (Consider the prohibition against usury.) Looking to the Bible for economic advice makes about as much sense as reading the Bible for medical advice.

Toto · 03-06-2005, 09:04 PM

By they way, welcome to the forums, loinburger!

Godless Wonder · 03-06-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Acts 5:1-4 describes how a certain Ananais tried to keep some of his own property for himself and not give it to the commune; as a result he was struck down dead.

But I checked the FAQ, and they are not using it to support capitalism, they are using it to support capital punishment:

Capital murder, capital punishment... what's the diff?

Capital murder, that's when you murder someone in order to get their money (or just in exchange for money.) Capital punishment, that's when you "punish" someone in order to get their money, right?

Clivedurdle · 03-07-2005, 07:56 AM

The other strong support for communist - well actually anarchist - ideas (property is theft is from Proudhon - an anarchist!) and while i'm at it Marx posited the communist state as a way station to the ideal of from each according to their ability to each according to their need - and I thought that was originally penned by a twelth century Monk - is the parable of the workers getting the same pay for different lengths of time at work. (That sentence is almost Proustian!!)

As my moral philosophy lecturer put it - if you have a million oranges, why do you want a million and one?

So xianity and Judaism have very strong proto anarchist tradition that got lost in a certain hierarchy! Why all the Hebrew Bible stuff against Kings? What about the concept of Jubillee where it all gets redistributed?

Blessed are the poor, eyes of needles.....

Clivedurdle · 03-07-2005, 08:03 AM

Your original quote about stewardship assumes we are individual stewards! Maybe our stewardship is collective! I was taught there were two parts to a cross the upright one signifying our individual relationship with God, the cross arms signifying our responsibility for and with each other! Salvation is about both - maybe no one gets to heaven unless everyone does!

Clivedurdle · 03-07-2005, 08:04 AM

Oh, and the kingdom of heaven is amongst us - so I think the Bible is not agnostic about communism but definitely in favour!

PhilosopherJay · 03-07-2005, 05:29 PM

Hi Clive,

I think everything depends on how we define communism. I define it as a society with a good memory. Under this definition, some forms of early Christianity seem to have been communistic and others not.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Oh, and the kingdom of heaven is amongst us - so I think the Bible is not agnostic about communism but definitely in favour!

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03-06-2005, 02:18 PM	#2
S.C.Carlson Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,307	How is Acts 4:34-35 handled?

03-06-2005, 09:04 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	By they way, welcome to the forums, loinburger!

03-07-2005, 07:56 AM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The other strong support for communist - well actually anarchist - ideas (property is theft is from Proudhon - an anarchist!) and while i'm at it Marx posited the communist state as a way station to the ideal of from each according to their ability to each according to their need - and I thought that was originally penned by a twelth century Monk - is the parable of the workers getting the same pay for different lengths of time at work. (That sentence is almost Proustian!!) As my moral philosophy lecturer put it - if you have a million oranges, why do you want a million and one? So xianity and Judaism have very strong proto anarchist tradition that got lost in a certain hierarchy! Why all the Hebrew Bible stuff against Kings? What about the concept of Jubillee where it all gets redistributed? Blessed are the poor, eyes of needles.....

03-07-2005, 08:03 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Your original quote about stewardship assumes we are individual stewards! Maybe our stewardship is collective! I was taught there were two parts to a cross the upright one signifying our individual relationship with God, the cross arms signifying our responsibility for and with each other! Salvation is about both - maybe no one gets to heaven unless everyone does!

03-07-2005, 08:04 AM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Oh, and the kingdom of heaven is amongst us - so I think the Bible is not agnostic about communism but definitely in favour!

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