Shulammit

by Romans, does anyone know anything about any other groups of people willing to die for what they believed in?

Just wondering...I really do not know, a lot on the subject of zealotry as it is defined being committed before the above named incident.


Shulammit

:banghead:

RED DAVE

They believed in freedom.

Slave Revolt of Spartacus

RED DAVE

godfry n. glad

By zealotry, I'm assuming that you do not mean "Zealotry", which is confined to a specific organized political group in 1st century Palestine.

And, yes, zealotry, or willingness to die for one's religious belief as a martyr, had a long history within the Hebrew tradition. I believe there were incidents during the Maccabean Wars against the tyranny of Antiochus Epiphanes, during the Herodian rule and even during the procuratorship of Pontius Pilate (when a deputation of priests from the Temple stretched out their necks for execution, rather than back down from their demand that the legion standard, complete with graven image, be removed from the Temple grounds).

It had well-established credentials by the mid-first century CE.

godfry

gridleyjason

The Spartans at Thermopylae under Leonidas, for one.

But are you really asking if there were any groups who were willing to commit mass suicide (if Josephus is correct in this) rather than be caputred and forced into slavery?

In any case, the foremost study on the Zealots and of the ideology of "zeal"is the book by Martin Hengel called (aptly enough) _The Zealots_. It was published by T & T Clark in 1989.

Jason

Shulammit

I was thnking more about choosing death rather than live with, under amongst those who are ideallogically opposed to the captors, with slavery being a secondary consideration.

I am using that supposition, and not debating it actually; more like trying to trace the origins of dying for ones philosophical mores, and culture., than say, territory, women or hunting grounds.

Sometimes I don't make myself very clear when I write things down but hI hope this will help clarify the issue.



Shulammit

spin

Masada itself should not be considered an act of zealotry, though there may have been zealots present as per the sources. The people at Masada had holed up there thinking that they were safe from further Roman military repression. What they didn't realise was that Rome had no intention of leaving such a group be. In fact the Romans had despatched a rather sizable force to deal with the problem and had made sure that no-one could escape by building a wall all the way around the site. Romans were good at siege tactics. The people at Masada had no chance as the Romans were prepared to wait them out. The Roman "victory" was never really in doubt once it was clear that they were not going to get tired of waiting, but would, slowly but surely, force their way up and into natural fortress. Once this end was in sight, the acts of the Romans against those who resisted them as seen in earlier military efforts would show the resistors that they had little to look forward to. There were few options ahead of them: kill themselves or die in more excruciating ways at the hands of the Romans.

There is a long history of horrid revenge of military aggressors against resisting peoples. After eventually breaching the defenses of Tyre, Alexander the Great crucified thousands of Tyrians. The Romans after finally defeating Spartacus crucified every one of his supporters along the Appian Way back towards Rome.

The Hebrew bible is replete with those who prefer to fall on their swords rather than be captured and die humiliatedly and horridly. Hannibal took poison. These deaths were not based on some philosophical commitment and neither were those of the people at Masada. Look at Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 17.10.2, where he relates of events at the beginning of the era concerning the actions of some Jews,

There was a great number more, who, out of despair of saving their lives, and out of astonishment at the misery that surrounded them, did either cast themselves into the fire, or threw themselves upon their swords, and so got out of their misery.

So, not dying for one's philosophical mores, and culture. Dying as the only option in a desperate situation.


spin

Shulammit

I thought that at some time preceeding the assault on Masada, they could have surrendered.

spin

See Josephus, The Jewish War, 7.8.

The whole idea of setting oneself up in a fortress was to withstand enemy assaults. Would one normally surrender themselves at best into slavery when one had an almost impregnable fortress in which to hide?


spin

Shulammit

Slavery is not a great way to live; but where there is life; there is hope. That has been at the core of Hebraic belief, I believe from quite some time ago.

And actually, my original question was were there any other groups prior to the Hebrews that ended in this way?

Shulammit

Slavery is not a great way to live; but where there is life; there is hope. That has been at the core of Hebraic belief, I believe from quite some time ago.

And actually, my original question was were there any other groups prior to the Hebrews that ended in this way?