Sensei Meela

Can anyone elucidate? YHWH, EL and Elohim -- and I may have missed more -- are all ways to refer to God in the OT, but (as I understand it), each has been somewhat 'perverted' from "other gods" as they were incorporated into early Hebrew/Isrealite/Judaic belief. As I also understand it, any word that ends with "-im" (in Hebrew) is plural, indicating that Elohim is a plural entity -- something Trinitarians are wont to trump-up. Finally, IIRC, each 'figure' has different roles (as it were), sp. in relation to the creation account -- who does what?

Any comments or references would be greatly appreciated.

Love Fountain

Hi Sensei Meela,

Elohim is plural and means gods(godesses), judges, angels, magistrates and with the definite article God. YHWH is the same God but in covenant relation.

Happy New Year,
Love Fountain

Doctor X

Sensei:

Well you ask a complicated question to which the answer is not, frankly, known.

A simple answer is that El, Elohim, and YHWH were separate deities--different writers of the Pentateuch use the different names for their texts. At some point, "they" were conceived of or an attempt was made to make them one deity--hence the "switch" with Moses and da Bush On Fire--settle down, you democrats!

El was a major Canaanite/Hebrew deity. Neat.

YHWH appears to have become one as well. According to Cross, it is "the causitive imperfect of the Proto-Canaanite-Hebrew verb hwy, 'to be.'"

Of course. . . .

Anyways, he discusses how deities tend to have titles--"God Who Makes the Heavenly Hosts," "God of the Mountain," "God of the No-Down Real Estate Scheme." At some point, the "verb" became detached from the main god El.

It is even more wierd . . . there are many examples of gods changing levels, with a main god becoming sort of "universal" and a "younger god" taking care of the day-to-day smitings. See Babylonian/Sumerian and Greek myths. Thus, the process of YHWH becoming separate is not unheard of. How or when? I do not know.

However, YHWH has a lot of parallels to the Canaanite diety Baal, which means "lord." Baal "replaces" El much like a Marduk replaces Enlil . . . if I have that right! Enlil is Sumerian, I forget if he carries on to the Babylonian. Anyways, lots of parallels, so did the YHWH cult exist to make a distinction between the El worshippers? The Baal worshippers?

How much was "local"--"those guys" call him "Baal" while "those other guys" call him "El."

We do know YHWH becomes separate--we have iconography. It is possible, if not probable, that at some point YHWH had a consort like Baal--"Asherah."

As for the Elohim? The OT is really not monotheistic, nor were the religions that spawn the texts. What matters is "our god" is better than "their god." So a tradition of "gods" does exist which became monotheistic.

Anyways, the specific details are sketchy by nature of the evidence. For example, John Collins, in his presidential address to the Society for Biblical Literature two years back, noted that scholars have been forced to accept that child sacrifice was once a part of the YHWH cult--probably the El as well. When, where, when it stopped . . . who knows?!!

--J.D.

Marduk

“El much like a Marduk replaces Enlil . . . if I have that right”

yea pretty much, Marduk the son of Ea, Ea the brother of Enlil. Ea & Enlil sons of the great Anu, who is so buff he only shows up periodically. Marduk comes late in Babylon ca. 700 BCE. He starts a war and makes peace when the other gods agree to make him the boss. In the older stories Ea creates makind but when they decide to make Marduk the big cheese the myth is twisted up so Marduk creates the Earth after his dad made the humans, of course no one in those days found this odd.

Amlodhi

Hello Marduk,

It would be way off topic to get into it here, but there may have been a reason why no one found this odd. IIRC, there seemed to be some disagreement between Marduk and the other gods as to when his appointment was to begin. This disagreement seemed to revolve around astronomical (perhaps precessional) considerations.

As Santillana and Von Dechend explain in their thesis "Hamlet's Mill", it was not unusual for these cultures to refer to major precessional age changes as "creating a new earth".


Namaste'

Amlodhi

Sensei Meela

Fascinating. Thanks all.

Dr. X:

You've mentioned Cross...would that be Frank Moore Cross, who authored "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic"? I am to take it then (assuming the affirmative) that you would recommend this reference? I shall look into it then...any others?

Jayhawker Soule

You might also pick up The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel by Mark S. Smith.

(Modified Amazon link - MD)

spin

I'd love you to explain why a Babylonian king called Marduk-nadin-ahhe, who was a contemporary to Tiglath-Pileser I (Tukulti-apil-Esharra I) circa 1100 BCE, was in fact called Marduk-nadin-ahhe, if Marduk didn't get to Babylon until 700 BCE.


spin

Doctor X

Sensei:

Yes, but it helps if you know Hebrew. It can get a bit linguistically painful, especially when he explains where YHWH comes from. Now, not to dissuade you, because I, also, do not know Hebrew!!

ConsequentAtheist recommends a book I was looking for to link here. I have not read it, but I have heard good things about it.

--J.D.

Marduk

"if Marduk didn't get to Babylon until 700 BCE"

Marduk wasn't that important a deity till later (OK maybe my date of 700 BCE is a little off) Ea Anu & Enlil were the traditional heavyweights. Or so I thought


Anyway I don't even remember his name coming up in any major works like the Epic of Gilgamesh or the Atrahasis, only the Enuma Elish, which I thought was a later addition, of course my memory might be going to.