inquisitive01

We got a little off track of the topic at hand in E/C (in the thread "How Should I Explain This Idiocy?"), so I brought this over here:




Genesis 17:1 - It does not say HOW God appeared to Abraham, just that He appeared to Abraham. Also, it does seem that one's life can be spared (see Jacob below) IF God chooses it to be spared.

Genesis 32:20 - Esau was the name of the "lord" (not a capital "L" as in Lord) in Genesis 32:19, the Verse that preceeds 32:20. However, Genesis 32:30 does state that Jacob life was "spared" even though he saw the face of God.

Exodus 33:11 - IF one reads Exodus 33:9, it says "the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle"... which seems to mean that God appeared to Moses as a cloudy pillar.

1 Kings 22:19 - Says Micaiah saw "the Lord" (could mean God or a futuristic vision of Jesus?) on his throne... does not say in what form or whether or not it was face to face.

Ezekiel 20:35 - Again, this does not say in what form. Would their lives be "spared" as Jacob's was?

Amos 9:1 - Did he see Him from the front (and was His face included)? From behind? Does "the Lord" mean Jesus (as a futuristic vision) or God? If Amos did see His face, was his life perhaps "spared" like Jacob's?

Dean Anderson

I'll recap a bit here, to give people more context...

You asserted that according to the Bible, no-one can see God and live. I pointed out that:

1) According to the Bible it is only that people cannot see God's face and live, not that they cannot see him at all.

2) The Bible has many examples of seeing God and living, all of which contradict your statement.

However, if we narrow this down to where the Bible contradicts itself, rather than where it contradicts what you say, we see the following...

The Bible specifically says:
Indicating that no-one is capable of seeing God's face and surviving the experience.

However, as we can see in the following verse, just after Jacob has wreslted with God:

This verse contradicts the previous. God specifically says that no-one can see his face and survive, and then Jacob does see it and survive.

One of these must be in error. Either Jacob is lying when he claims to have seen God face to face (or, more likely, the writer of that part of Exodus was writing fiction) or God was lying when he said that no-one could see his face and live - because they can if he lets them (or, more likely again, the writer of that part of Genesis was writing fiction).

Your 'answer' to this contradiction is to assert that God can choose whether or not to kill people who see his face. If this were the case, you need to explain why:

1) God lied to Moses and said that no-one may see his face and survive (rather than telling the truth and saying that if he chose to kill them they would not survive.

2) God does to all the trouble of hiding and putting his hand over Moses to avoid accidentally killing him, when he could simply choose not to kill him.

Sven

So, let me see, this was your first claim:
"it clearly states in the Bible that no one can see God and live."

But now... !

The idea that "one's life can be spared [...] IF God chooses it to be spared" is simply made up to avoid the contradictions. It has no biblical support; god never says something like this (AFAIK). And you also didn't mention this possibility above - it was "no one", period.

It's still a contradiction.

BTW, I have another problem with this statement: Christians think we will live in heaven after death (or in hell). God is expected to be in heaven. So, every time those folks in heaven accicently meet god and forget to look down, they die once more? :huh:

Another BTW: Verse 25 is also interesting [emphasis mine]: When the man saw that he could not overpower him [Jacob] [...]

I pity your god inquisitive, he can not even win a wrestling match against a mere human.

Edited to add a third BTW: 1 John 4:12 is also interesting here: "No one has ever seen God [...]".

inquisitive01

Maybe (since we're dealing with maybe's here) the writer of Exodus made some sort of error, or maybe the "face of God" Jacob saw (or even the place he named Peniel) was representative of something else, such as how countries (i.e., Israel is mentioned just after this "wrestling match" in Genesis 32: 28, 32) are sometimes represented by other things in visions, etc. After looking more carefully at these Verses, it seems even possible that the name "Jacob" may be representative of something else, such as Israel.

Sven

PHF provided two possibilities, which one is it? If it's neither, provide an alternative explanation - not only for the passage about Jacob, but for all the others.

Israel is clearly given the new name given to Jacob, not the nation. If you reject the plain meaning of texts, I can also do this: The passages which claim that Jesus was resurrected actually mean that his corpse decomposed completely.

post tenebras lux

It appears to me that inquisitive01 has already answered his own problem with Another Ben's Shoulder God (that led to this new thread).

Another Ben's Shoulder God could well just be a talking pillar of smoke. My personal Shoulder God is usually just a small bush slowly burning not-away. Some people claim that I'm only more suntanned on my lefthand side because my lefthand side receives more direct sun whilst driving, but I know that the real reason is because it keeps on being bathed in ineffable light.

Sometimes, maybe he has a hangover or something, but he just doesn't bother to comb his hair and so his face is totally obscured. Rather like a little Captain Caveman sitting here whispering into my ear.

So, is everything possible if we're allowed to pick'n'mix our own bible quotes as and when we wish? Quite possibly as 'everything' is in the bible. Or is it that 'the expanation of everything' is in the bible?

Or can I just say 'maybe' and expect you to prove the opposite? :wave:

Luxie

Amaleq13

How can you not prefer a "just the hind parts" view like Moses got to see?

post tenebras lux

You want me to get rude thoughts about God? What do you think I am? Some sort of kinky theophile? :wide:

Luxie

inquisitive01

Sure seems like vanity (i.e., I know all the answers, therefore, whatever I say goes) to me. :boohoo:

So, Luxie, do you know all the answers? If so, please share them with us (I don't wish to have to have any more surgeries, if you can indeed tell me how to avoid it, that is).

post tenebras lux

It's all vanity, all vanity - we try to have control
It's all vanity, all vanity 'cause Chaos rules it all - New Model Army

:snooze:
To ask questions to gain a better understanding is vain?

Oh well, you live and learn. Or, rather, I don't - cos I already know all the answers according to inq01. :angel:

Anyway Inq01, are you really wanting to have an honest serious discussion on "So, is everything possible if we're allowed to pick'n'mix our own bible quotes as and when we wish?"

Or are you only wanting me to have some fun? :devil2:

Hmmm. Still, I think I'll let Pervy finish with you first. Manners maketh man, and all that.

And speaking of manners: why don't you answer some questions instead of just spouting off? Or is 'maybe' as far as your thinking has taken you?
It's OK, it's not actually illegal to be agnostic on the IIDB.

Luxie
No, it's never enough, it's never enough until your heart stops beating - New Order