Freethought & Rationalism Archive

A Stable Flux · 01-29-2008, 05:32 AM

As of late I've come around to the surprisingly addictive pursuit of biblical research. Perhaps it's noticing the disparities between Christianity's vague and varying descriptions next to those of Professors of religious studies. Anywho I'm not putting forward this OP as a sturdy thesis, but rather an invitation to a discussion upon subject matter I've recently become acquainted with.

Was Jesus apocalyptic? Or was Jesus apocalyptic in the same sense as the Book of Daniel? What were the End of the World/Time or eschatology beliefs Jesus had?

End of the world and time ideas were primarily conceived a while after the conquest of the kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C.E. (Sheehan 2000:36). Israel (the kingdom of Judah) was a nation displaced which had difficulty reconciling it's religious culture with the nation's new status. The Talmud, an abundance of rigid Jewish law was composed to assure solidarity in a people who basically had their identity shaken(Sheehan 2000:36).

Quote:

Along with this post-exilic emphasis on the Law there went a transformation in the Jewish conception of Yahweh and his relation to his chosen people. Before the captivity in Babylon, Israel envisioned God's salvation as a future restoration of the glorious past under a new Davidic king. But after the exile, when Yahweh seemed to have fled to the higher heavens, leaving priests and scribes in his wake, the earlier hope for this-worldly theocratic restoration began to fade. Yahweh came to be seen less as the national deity who had intervened and would intervene again in Israel's political history, and more as an Oriental despot who ruled the entire universe, including the Gentile nations, from the distant and impersonal heights of metaphysical transcendence. From those heavens he governed the world no longer by direct historical intervention as in the past, but by the ministrations of angelic mediators who, like the eternal Law, mediated his presence to mankind.
Israel's retreat from history took a dramatic step in the second century B.C.E. with the emergence of the radically new idea of eschatology, the doctrine of the end of the world. At the beginning of the Maccabean revolt, when Israel's fate seemed to be at its lowest point, pious Jews began to hope not for a new divine intervention within history but for a catastrophic end to history, when God would stop the trajectory of Israel's decline by destroying this sinful world and creating a new, supratemporal realm where the just would find their eternal reward.

(Sheehan 2000:38-39).

With that summary of Apocalypticism and a quick description of the environment surrounding Jesus, now for matters concerning whether he was apocalyptic. The two main factors, as I see, which would decide whether Jesus was apocalyptic or not are Jesus' beliefs about the Kingdom of God and about God himself.

Quote:

The time is fulfilled,
God's reign is at hand!
Change your ways! (Mark 1:15)

Quote:

Jesus' preaching was as riveting as John's, but different in tone and substance. Whereas John had emphasized the woes of impending judgment, Jesus preached the joy of God's immediate and liberating presence. A dirge had given way to a lyric.
The contrasting life-styles of the two prophets betrayed their very different messages, and the difference was not lost on the people. John scratched in the desert for locusts in order to remind his followers how bad things were and how few would be saved. But Jesus rarely passed up a good meal and a flask of wine, regardless of the company, as if to say that the eschatological banquet was now being served and everyone, including sinners, was invited.

(Sheehan 2000:57-58).

Quote:

John the Baptist had "existentialized" eschatology: He had demythologized the future apocalyptic catastrophe and proclaimed it to be God's present judgment on the individual. Jesus, however, went a step further and "personalized" John's existential eschatology: He interpreted it not as the harsh judgment of a terrifying God but as the intimate presence of a loving Father.

(Sheehan 2000:59).

Quote:

The heart of Jesus' message is summarized in the strikingly simple name with which he addressed the divine: "Abba," the Aramaic word for "papa" (Mark 14:36). This familial usage, which underlies all Jesus' references to "the Father," was a shock to the then current idea of God.[29] Late Judaism tended to see Yahweh as a distant and almost impersonal Sovereign whose presence to mankind required the mediation of angels, the Law, and the complexities of religious ritual. But with the simple and intimate word "Abba," Jesus signaled that God was immediately and intimately present, not as a harsh judge but as a loving and generous father. His presence was a pure and unearned gift, and one could relate to him without fear. "Be not afraid," Jesus told his followers. "Do not be anxious about your life," "Do not worry."

(Sheehan 2000:59).

To sum my developing beliefs about Jesus as apocalyptic, I think he was primarily concerned with preaching a personal message which could help people live their lives in this world. He didn't want to be doctrinal, he wanted individuals to be empowering "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27). I don't think, to the disappointment of an unfortunately large crowd today, that Jesus is eagerly awaiting the rapture which even he doesn't know about ("No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son" Mark 13:32).

I tried to summarise and be brief as possible, but the subject is clearly dense with many implicitions and ideas offshooting. By the way, I'm a old infrequent poster on IIDB (my other account name is Hot_ice72), but I've finally dispensed with that account name i thought up in highschool.

My bibliography was The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity and it was nice to learn infidels.org provide an online copy of it

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Stable Flux

To sum my developing beliefs about Jesus as apocalyptic, I think he was primarily concerned with preaching a personal message which could help people live their lives in this world. He didn't want to be doctrinal, he wanted individuals to be empowering "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

I agree with you 100%.

ApostateAbe · 01-29-2008, 06:34 AM

I am with you on the hypothesis that Jesus was apocalyptic. I think of him as a doomsday cult leader, someone who professed that the end of the world would happen within the generation of his listeners. After the generation had died over time, Christians had to reinterpret the prophecies, which is the source of the aphorism, "with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I am with you on the hypothesis that Jesus was apocalyptic. I think of him as a doomsday cult leader, someone who professed that the end of the world would happen within the generation of his listeners. After the generation had died over time, Christians had to reinterpret the prophecies, which is the source of the aphorism, "with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

Wrong. 2000 years ago he was in no way shape of form a "doomsday cult leader". Consider the following:

Quote:

Luke 4:17-21: "And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him (Jesus). And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.' And He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon Him. And He began to say to them, ‘Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'"

If you care to read the book of Isaiah and what the next statement is. That might fit your argument about doomsday (isn't the word (doomsday) from england about a book that was used for tax purposes anyway?)

ApostateAbe · 01-29-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I am with you on the hypothesis that Jesus was apocalyptic. I think of him as a doomsday cult leader, someone who professed that the end of the world would happen within the generation of his listeners. After the generation had died over time, Christians had to reinterpret the prophecies, which is the source of the aphorism, "with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

Wrong. 2000 years ago he was in no way shape of form a "doomsday cult leader". Consider the following:

Quote:

Luke 4:17-21: "And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him (Jesus). And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.' And He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon Him. And He began to say to them, ‘Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.'"

If you care to read the book of Isaiah and what the next statement is. That might fit your argument about doomsday

OK, I apologize, I don't quite follow the argument.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Wrong. 2000 years ago he was in no way shape of form a "doomsday cult leader". Consider the following:

If you care to read the book of Isaiah and what the next statement is. That might fit your argument about doomsday

OK, I apologize, I don't quite follow the argument.

No problem. Note the following scripture in bold.

Quote:

The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

The part in bold is clearly apocalyptic hence Yeshua didn't read it.

A Stable Flux · 01-29-2008, 08:21 AM

Upon rereading my OP it isn't as clear as I would of liked it to be

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Stable Flux

I don't think, to the disappointment of an unfortunately large crowd today, that Jesus is eagerly awaiting the rapture which even he doesn't know about ("No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son" Mark 13:32).

I don't think Jesus was primarily apocalyptic, if apocalyptic at all. His messages seem so much more direct and person-centred. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 for example.
Although my surveying the issue I discovered good contemporary scholars on each side, Bart D. Ehrman (or via: amazon.co.uk) believes he is apocalyptic, whilst John Dominic Crossan (or via: amazon.co.uk) and Stephen Patterson (or via: amazon.co.uk) believe he isn't. I'm not at all saying I'm familiar with their arguments, as I said in the first paragraph of the OP. But currently I do not think Jesus was apocalyptic.

No Robots · 01-29-2008, 08:49 AM

Apocalyptic imagery was part of Christ's rhetorical arsenal, as it was for the OT prophets.

gstafleu · 01-29-2008, 08:56 AM

Which Jesus are we talking about? Is the Jesus of Paul apocalyptic? I don't know, actually, perhaps a Paul expert can throw some light on this. The "Jesus" of Revelations OTOH is clearly apocalyptic, or more accurately he is more or less the apocalypse all by his little self. The gospel Jesus seems to be a bit of both. Often he is a be-nice-here-and-now guy, at other times, like on the Mount of Olives, he lets rip some uninhibited apocalypsism. And why he bothered with that whole crucifixion deal if the end were near is a bit of a mystery.

Gerard Stafleu

mg01 · 01-29-2008, 09:42 AM

The Gnostics certainly didn't think Jesus preached a apocalyptic message nor that the often assocaited "Kingdom of Heaven" was a reference to some historical yet-to-be event associated with it.

Quote:

From the Gospel of Thomas

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

By this interpretation the sayings/teachings of Jesus can be see as extremely similar to Buddah. Only later were these things associated with Jewish eschalogical ideas derived from Persian influence.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-29-2008, 06:34 AM	#3
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	I am with you on the hypothesis that Jesus was apocalyptic. I think of him as a doomsday cult leader, someone who professed that the end of the world would happen within the generation of his listeners. After the generation had died over time, Christians had to reinterpret the prophecies, which is the source of the aphorism, "with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day."

01-29-2008, 08:49 AM	#8
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Apocalyptic imagery was part of Christ's rhetorical arsenal, as it was for the OT prophets.

01-29-2008, 08:56 AM	#9
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Which Jesus are we talking about? Is the Jesus of Paul apocalyptic? I don't know, actually, perhaps a Paul expert can throw some light on this. The "Jesus" of Revelations OTOH is clearly apocalyptic, or more accurately he is more or less the apocalypse all by his little self. The gospel Jesus seems to be a bit of both. Often he is a be-nice-here-and-now guy, at other times, like on the Mount of Olives, he lets rip some uninhibited apocalypsism. And why he bothered with that whole crucifixion deal if the end were near is a bit of a mystery. Gerard Stafleu

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.