Freethought & Rationalism Archive

countjulian · 10-28-2006, 08:47 AM

Very interesting post from Michael Gilleland (who is a very devoted Catholic, BTW) over at Laudator Temporis Acti

http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot...-on-water.html

Quote:

Running and Walking on Water
Apollonius of Rhodes, Argonautica 1.179-184 (tr. E.V. Rieu):

After them, from Taenarum, came Euphemus, the fastest runner in the world, whom Europa daughter of the mighty Tityos bore to Poseidon. This man could run across the rolling waters of the grey sea without wetting his swift feet. His toes alone sank in as he sped along his watery path.

Ταίναρον αὖτ' ἐπὶ τοῖσι λιπὼν Εὔφημος ἵκανε,
τόν ῥα �*οσειδάωνι ποδωκηέστατον ἄλλων
Εὐρώπη Τιτυοῖο μεγασθενέος τέκε κούρη.
Κεῖνος ἀνὴρ καὶ πόντου ἐπὶ γλαυκοῖο θέεσκεν
οἴδματος, οὐδὲ θοοὺς βάπτεν πόδας, ἀλλ' ὅσον ἄκροις
ἴχνεσι τεγγόμενος διερῆι πεφόρητο κελεύθωι.

John 6.16-21 (cf. Mark 6.45-52 and Matthew 14.22-33):

And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

Ὡς δὲ ὀψία ἐγένετο κατέβησαν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν θάλασσαν, καὶ ἐμβάντες εἰς πλοῖον ἤρχοντο πέραν τῆς θαλάσσης εἰς Καφαρναούμ. καὶ σκοτία ἤδη ἐγεγόνει καὶ οὔπω ἐληλύθει πρὸς αὐτοὺς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, ἥ τε θάλασσα ἀνέμου μεγάλου πνέοντος διεγείρετο. ἐληλακότες οὖν ὡς σταδίους εἴκοσι πέντε ἢ τριάκοντα θεωροῦσιν τὸν Ἰησοῦν περιπατοῦντα ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης καὶ ἐγγὺς τοῦ πλοίου γινόμενον, καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν. ὁ δὲ λέγει αὐτοῖς, Ἐγώ εἰμι, μὴ φοβεῖσθε. ἤθελον οὖν λαβεῖν αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ πλοῖον, καὶ εὐθέως ἐγένετο τὸ πλοῖον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἰς ἣν ὑπῆγον.

Also Lucian True Story should also be cited.

Quote:

"We came in sight of many men running over the sea..." [Lucian, A true Story, 2.4]

and further in Lover of Lies

Quote:

"I saw him soar through the air in broad daylight and walk on water..." [Lucian, The Lover of Lies, 13]

Post Scriptum
Anyone know how to get the Greek to work?

Malachi151 · 10-28-2006, 08:53 AM

No, on the Greek, but also walking on water is mentioned in the Iliad, with the use of winged shoes. It was certainly not an unheard of claim in the Greek speaking world, and how it is portrayed in Mark (which which the others come) is very similar to the Greek tellings of the power, i.e. its just something being does in the act of some other activity, its not being done in order to prove anything or as a demonstration itself.

countjulian · 10-28-2006, 09:00 AM

Quote:

No, on the Greek, but also walking on water is mentioned in the Iliad, with the use of winged shoes.

I read the whole Illiad recently, and I don't remember this. Could you please post the locus with citation? Thanks in advance.

Malachi151 · 10-28-2006, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I read the whole Illiad recently, and I don't remember this. Could you please post the locus with citation? Thanks in advance.

Maybe its the Odyssey. My copy is packed at the moment (I moved recently) so I can't look, but its one of the two.

WishboneDawn · 10-28-2006, 09:35 AM

Perseus and Hermes wore winged shoes...

Malachi151 · 10-28-2006, 09:46 AM

Interesting:

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Jes...s_on_Water.htm

Quote:

To recognize the Old Testament basis for much of Mark's story, one must recall that the Lord dwelled on mountains,10 hovered over the waters and treaded on the waves of the sea,11 and promised he would be with people who passed over dangerous waters.12 In one famous scene, the Lord came down from the mountain and identified himself to Moses with the words, “Ego eimi,” 13 which means, I am or, It is I. Not long after that, the Lord gave a demonstration of his glory by “passing by” Moses.14 To show his readers that Jesus was indeed the son of God, and was just like his father, Mark had Jesus do all of these things in his water-walking story.

Thus, Mark may have been closely following the millennium-old blueprint for the messiah’s future actions when he put Jesus on a mountain before he goes down to the lake and walks on water, intending to pass by the disciples in a display of his glory. Mark then has the disciples see a "ghost" instead of the miracle-working son of God and cry out in fear. This failure to identify was a literary device to allow Mark to allow Jesus--in a moment of drama as high as that found in the Yahweh burning bush identification scene15--to identify himself with the famous words, ego eimi, “It is I.”

Jesus then calm the disciples' fears and controls nature--all in a way that is reminiscent of the divine events described in the Old Testament. However, even after the multiplication of the loaves, the walking on water, and the stilling of the headwind, Mark has the disciples only be “amazed"; if they’d understood that they’d witnessed God’s power at work through Jesus, they wouldn’t have been surprised at all. Mark thus is laying the groundwork needed to allow the reader to understand why the disciples will later abandon Jesus at his arrest.

EarlOfLade · 10-28-2006, 11:56 AM

Chris Angel walked on water in a pool filled with people.

Is he jesus reincranated?

countjulian · 10-28-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Jesus then calm the disciples' fears and controls nature--all in a way that is reminiscent of the divine events described in the Old Testament. However, even after the multiplication of the loaves, the walking on water, and the stilling of the headwind, Mark has the disciples only be “amazed"; if they’d understood that they’d witnessed God’s power at work through Jesus, they wouldn’t have been surprised at all. Mark thus is laying the groundwork needed to allow the reader to understand why the disciples will later abandon Jesus at his arrest.

Yes, but there are no actual parrallels to Jesus walking on the water in the OT. Only Greek literature seems to have anything resembling this.

Ben C Smith · 10-28-2006, 04:55 PM

Consider also Dio Chrysostom, Third Discourse on Kingship 30-31, Hippias the Elaean speaking:

Ω Σωκρατες, εφη, τουτο μεν επιστασαι παντος μαλλον, οτι των υπο τον ηλιον ανθρωπων εκεινος εστιν ισχυροτατος και μηδε των θεων αυτων ηττονα εχων δυναμιν ω γε ενεστι και τα αδυνατα δοκουντα ποιησαι δυνατα, ει βουλοιτο, πεζευεσθαι μεν την θαλατταν, πλεισθαι δε τα ορη, τους δε ποταμους εκλειπειν υπο ανθρωπων πινομενους· η ουκ ακηκοας οτι Ξερξης ο των �*ερσων βασιλευς την μεν γην εποιησε θαλατταν, διελων το μεγιστον των ορων και διαστησας απο της ηπειρου τον Αθω, δια δε της θαλαττης τον πεζον στρατον αγων ηλαυνεν εφ αρματος, ωσπερ τον �*οσειδωνα φησιν Ομηρος; και τυχον ομοιως οι τε δελφινες και τα κητη κατωθεν υπεπλει την σχεδιαν οποτε εκεινος ηλαυνε.

O Socrates, he says, this you know altogether well, that of humans under the sun that man is mightiest and has power not at all less than the gods themselves for whom it is possible to do seemingly impossible things as if they were possible, if he wishes, that the sea be walked upon, that the mountains be sailed, and that rivers be drained, drunk by men. Or have you not heard that Xerxes the king of the Persians made a sea of the land, cutting through the greatest of mountains and separating Athos from the continent, and that he led his infantry through the sea and rode upon a chariot, just like Homer says Poseidon does? And perchance likewise the dolphins and monsters from below swam under the raft when that man drove along.

But the Old Testament, while lacking any actual narrative of a man walking on water, attributes walking on water to God himself.

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 10-29-2006, 06:11 AM

(As usual, the instances of the letter Ϊ above should be capital pi.)

10-28-2006, 04:55 PM	#9
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Consider also Dio Chrysostom, Third Discourse on Kingship 30-31, Hippias the Elaean speaking: Ω Σωκρατες, εφη, τουτο μεν επιστασαι παντος μαλλον, οτι των υπο τον ηλιον ανθρωπων εκεινος εστιν ισχυροτατος και μηδε των θεων αυτων ηττονα εχων δυναμιν ω γε ενεστι και τα αδυνατα δοκουντα ποιησαι δυνατα, ει βουλοιτο, πεζευεσθαι μεν την θαλατταν, πλεισθαι δε τα ορη, τους δε ποταμους εκλειπειν υπο ανθρωπων πινομενους· η ουκ ακηκοας οτι Ξερξης ο των �ερσων βασιλευς την μεν γην εποιησε θαλατταν, διελων το μεγιστον των ορων και διαστησας απο της ηπειρου τον Αθω, δια δε της θαλαττης τον πεζον στρατον αγων ηλαυνεν εφ αρματος, ωσπερ τον �οσειδωνα φησιν Ομηρος; και τυχον ομοιως οι τε δελφινες και τα κητη κατωθεν υπεπλει την σχεδιαν οποτε εκεινος ηλαυνε. O Socrates, he says, this you know altogether well, that of humans under the sun that man is mightiest and has power not at all less than the gods themselves for whom it is possible to do seemingly impossible things as if they were possible, if he wishes, that the sea be walked upon, that the mountains be sailed, and that rivers be drained, drunk by men. Or have you not heard that Xerxes the king of the Persians made a sea of the land, cutting through the greatest of mountains and separating Athos from the continent, and that he led his infantry through the sea and rode upon a chariot, just like Homer says Poseidon does? And perchance likewise the dolphins and monsters from below swam under the raft when that man drove along. But the Old Testament, while lacking any actual narrative of a man walking on water, attributes walking on water to God himself. Ben.

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10-28-2006, 08:53 AM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	No, on the Greek, but also walking on water is mentioned in the Iliad, with the use of winged shoes. It was certainly not an unheard of claim in the Greek speaking world, and how it is portrayed in Mark (which which the others come) is very similar to the Greek tellings of the power, i.e. its just something being does in the act of some other activity, its not being done in order to prove anything or as a demonstration itself.

10-28-2006, 09:35 AM	#5
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	Perseus and Hermes wore winged shoes...

10-28-2006, 11:56 AM	#7
EarlOfLade Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,310	Chris Angel walked on water in a pool filled with people. Is he jesus reincranated?

10-29-2006, 06:11 AM	#10
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	(As usual, the instances of the letter Ϊ above should be capital pi.)

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