Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Robert Tulip · 04-19-2013, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Ummm. Yes you partake of the same anti-Semitism. I don't think you or her hate Jewish people per se. You two hate Jewish culture and the fact that it acts as firewall around Christianity for the idiotic beliefs of the new age cult you belong to. You hate Jewish culture because it says "Keep out"

Lets see. Leaving aside the inflammatory and false accusations, we are left with Stephan's opinions that:

(a) "Jewish culture firewall around Christianity" = false belief in supernatural transcendental monotheism

(b) "idiotic beliefs of the new age cult you belong to" = scientific naturalism.

Thanks for explaining where you are coming from Stephan.

Clivedurdle · 04-19-2013, 12:55 AM

As this is virgin on the ridiculous I thought I would introduce Apollo. Everyone say hello..

Mary Beard in Confronting the Classics (or via: amazon.co.uk) comments

Quote:

In the case of Pythia, her virginity ensured her openness to Apollo and (like a perfect bride) to him alone. Christian writers poured scorn on the way she sat (as they claimed) astride a tripod, legs apart, taking up the prophetic spirit into her vagina. But that was precisely the point: the body of the Pythia was open to the word of the god.

jakejonesiv · 04-19-2013, 01:04 AM

Hi Robert,

Is the woman of Revelation 12, "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head" the "Queen of heaven"?

What is the connection, if any, between Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17,25) and her husband Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) and Osiris/Isis? How did the term Easter originate?

Jake

stephan huller · 04-19-2013, 01:18 AM

scientific naturalism =

Quote:

Scientific Naturalism is the view that the universe, its characteristics, and its behaviors are to be investigated and understood in purely naturalistic terms. Everything that exists and everything that occurs is part of the natural universe and is subject to examination. Scientific Naturalism assumes that the universe is a closed system where all events occur for naturalistic reasons, and that there cannot be anything or anyone from outside that system which acts upon it. Therefore, Scientific Naturalism excludes the possibility of the supernatural and God as an explanation for any phenomena.http://carm.org/dictionary-scientific-naturalism

this is you guys? Really?

jakejonesiv · 04-19-2013, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

scientific naturalism =

Quote:

Scientific Naturalism is the view that the universe, its characteristics, and its behaviors are to be investigated and understood in purely naturalistic terms. Everything that exists and everything that occurs is part of the natural universe and is subject to examination. Scientific Naturalism assumes that the universe is a closed system where all events occur for naturalistic reasons, and that there cannot be anything or anyone from outside that system which acts upon it. Therefore, Scientific Naturalism excludes the possibility of the supernatural and God as an explanation for any phenomena.http://carm.org/dictionary-scientific-naturalism

this is you guys? Really?

For me, not exactly.

I am interested in testing historical theories by discussing historical evidence.

In that regard, I think it appropriate to mention one of the founders of the historical critical method, Ernst Troeltsch, who presented these three principles
1. Historical study renders only judgments of probability
2. The principle of analogy
3. The interconnection of historical events (cause and effect).

ON THE HISTORICAL AND DOGMATIC METHODS IN THEOLOGY [1898]
Ernst Troeltsch
Translated by Jack Forstman (Used by permission.)
Gesammelte Schriften, Volume II (Tubingen: J.C.B. Mohr
[Paul Siebeck], 1913), pp. 728—753
"Above all, however, the application of criticism to this material means that the religious tradition should be treated in exactly the same way we treat other traditions. The fundamental similarity between the modes of handing down material means that it is highly problematical to exempt one tradition from criticism while applying it to all other traditions."
http://tinyurl.com/23zaa75

It is entirely possible for a person of religious faith to abide by the rules of the historical critical method.
A notable example is Dr. Amy-Jill Levine, Vanderbilt University.
" A self-described "Yankee Jewish feminist who teaches in a predominantly Christian divinity school in the buckle of the Bible Belt," Professor Levine combines historical-critical rigor, literary-critical sensitivity, and a frequent dash of humor with a commitment to eliminating anti-Jewish, sexist, and homophobic theologies."
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/divinity/f...ges/levine.php

At the 2010 SBL held in Atlanta, there was a paper offered by Dr. Levine entitled “The Rules of the Game: History and Historical Method in the Context of Faith”

Quote:

Numerous scholars who engage in historical Jesus research have some type of faith perspective with respect to the subject of their inquiry--including myself. This may be one of the factors motivating our personal interest in the subject. But the question arises, should this presupposition affect or alter our understanding of either the concept of history or our application of historical method? This paper will respond to this question in the negative. The “rules of the game of history should preclude historians who have a faith perspective altering either the concept of history and or historical method.

Jake Jones IV

spin · 04-19-2013, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

Acharya S recently noted that in his book Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times (or via: amazon.co.uk), Egyptologist Dr. Donald B. Redford says “Few students of comparative religion today would dare even to broach the subject [that]… in mythology similarities do exist, if only in broad plot structure and plot roles.”

According to the BC&H guidelines, when you cite things, you should supply an exact references (1.c). Could you point me to the page where Redford said what you cite please?

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-19-2013, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

It really does not help the analysis to make asinine comments about differences, as though these deflate the similarities. Acharya S recently noted that in his book Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times (or via: amazon.co.uk), Egyptologist Dr. Donald B. Redford says “Few students of comparative religion today would dare even to broach the subject [that]… in mythology similarities do exist, if only in broad plot structure and plot roles.” This problem of fear of comparative analysis in scholarship has been mocked here, and yet here we find it raised by a distinguished Egyptologist.

I wonder if you've read the whole of what is selectively quoted here from Redford's work. He actually notes there that the 19th century "scholarship" that you regard so highly is facile and fanciful and unsound and too credulous.

In any case, I'd be interested to know if you are willing to write to Redford and ask him three things:

1. If he thinks that AS's work is sound

2. If he thinks that the reason "few" (but not all) " students of comparative religion today would dare even to broach the subject [that]… in mythology similarities do exist, if only in broad plot structure and plot roles." is fear. I don't see him actually saying that, so it would be good to have this clarified.

3. If those students of comparative religion who do dare to broach the subject of whether or not in mythology similarities exist, see the similarities that you and AS claim are there.

And if you won't write him (his address is in the link you provided), why won't you write him?

Jeffrey

Robert Tulip · 04-19-2013, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hi Robert, Is the woman of Revelation 12, "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head" the "Queen of heaven"? What is the connection, if any, between Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17,25) and her husband Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) and Osiris/Isis? How did the term Easter originate? Jake

Hello Jake, thank you. I will not comment about Easter as I do not know how to sort out the Germanic and other linguistic sources. Regarding the Queen of Heaven, you would recall that I discussed this verse at the Jesus Mysteries Yahoo Group. I agree with the Catholic view that it represents the Queen of Heaven. As Wikipedia comments, this is the traditional reading.

I explain my view on Revelation 12:1 here as follows. Since we will have Passover Blood Moons for the next two years in the sign of the woman, it is worth considering this image at some length.

Quote:

Here are two sky maps of the total lunar eclipse seen from Jerusalem at the Passover Festival on 23 March 4 BC, a date conventionally linked to the birth of Christ. The eclipse occurred 1.5 degrees of arc away from the equinox point, readily calculable from ancient knowledge of the diameter of the moon and the date of the equinox, providing a clear visible indicator of the location of the equinoctial point.

The importance of the lunar eclipse for naked eye astronomy, as compared to a normal full moon, is that the observed eclipse point is always exactly opposite the sun, to within a degree, whereas the moon appears full across several degrees of arc.

What we also see, and here the precessional content is extremely interesting, is that this eclipse occurred well inside the constellation of Virgo, whereas the Passover Full Moon had traditionally occurred in the constellation of Libra, as Philo attests. So, instead of the tradition that Passover happened with sun in Aries and moon in Libra, we find here a total eclipse at the equinox visible to everyone in the Roman Empire and Asia, but with the equinox visibly in Virgo, not Libra. This moon at the foot of the woman may well have been perceived as a religiously disturbing event, providing definitive visible proof of the shift to a new age. No wonder 4BC is associated with the mythical birth of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the clearest eclipse imagery in the Bible, apart from Peter’s quotation of Joel in Acts 2, is Revelation 6:12, the opening of the sixth seal, when “the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood, and the stars of the sky fell to earth.”

This image of the blood moon refers to a total lunar eclipse, when the moon naturally looks red as blood, due to atmospheric dust. The ‘sackcloth made of hair’ is apparently black goat hair, and means a total eclipse of the sun. A solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse have to be separated by at least two weeks, between new moon and full moon, so these two events can’t be the same day. So when verse 6:16-17 describes these total eclipses as ‘the day of the wrath of the Lamb’ it is not speaking about a single day. Rather, the link to a time when ‘the stars of the sky fell to earth’ indicates that the eclipses point to us a visible shift of the heavens.

Eclipses were key events in the ancient world for showing the exact position of the stars, revealing the invisible that had only been calculated by astronomers. The greatest Greek astronomer, Hipparchus of Rhodes, used observation of a total lunar eclipse on 21 March 134 BC to see that Virgo's brightest star Spica had precessed against the equinox.

The next key eclipse reference in Revelation is in Chapter 12. "A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child. She cried out in pain, laboring to give birth.”

On the night of Passover on 23 March 4BC, conventionally understood as the last year of the reign of Herod the Great and so a plausible birth date of Jesus Christ, a blood moon was visible in the sky at the feet of the sign of the virgin, with a total eclipse of the moon. This event is a plausible candidate for the origin of the mysterious symbolic language of Rev 12 about the woman and the moon and stars, and for the myth of Christ.

The Passover Blood Moon most certainly was ‘a great sign seen in heaven’. Jewish tradition had closely associated their primary national festival, Passover, with the month when the sun was in Aries and the moon was in Libra, as discussed by Philo. But, due to precession of the equinox, in this year a Passover blood moon was observable near the eclipse point, exactly opposite the sun, just a day or two after the equinox, but startlingly observable in the wrong constellation, at the feet of Virgo, and not in Libra. By the time of the Passover Blood Moon at the reputed birth date of Jesus Christ in 4 BC, Spica had precessed nearly a further two degrees from its position when Hipparchus noted the anomaly with old Babylonian star charts.

The age of the Lamb and the Scales of Justice had manifestly been replaced by the age of the fishes and the virgin, marking the Pauline age transition from law to grace, and clearly visible for all to see in Jerusalem at a time when observation of the Passover moon was of broad public interest. As the crowd gathered in Jerusalem, they saw the moon rise at 6pm in Virgo in the shadow of the earth, the penumbra, and then for two hours from 7pm, the moon went blood red as it passed through the core of the shadow, the umbra.

On this Passover night in 4BC, a 'great sign in heaven' occurred which could well have achieved wide notice as marking a turning point of time, a shift of ages – an event that could be the origin of the mysterious description in the Revelation of this event as ‘the stars falling from heaven.’ This total lunar eclipse matches precisely to the ‘woman with the moon at her feet’, since that is what everyone could see with the blood moon at Passover. The sense in which she was ‘clothed with the sun’ is more obscure. On this night Virgo was directly opposite the sun, and the moon at her feet was at its fullest – before it went blood red during the eclipse.

Virgo bears a surprising similarity in shape to the framework of the icon of the Christian Blessed Virgin Mary, with four central stars forming a diamond with Spica at the foot in the same iconic diamond shape of the conventional Catholic statue of the virgin with hands held open at her sides. As has happened with other such religiously charged star maps, common depictions are distorted. Even so, Catholicism routinely depicts Mary with a crown of twelve stars, readily understood as the twelve signs of the zodiac.

Next we hear “She was with child. She cried out in pain, laboring to give birth.” My reading here, with the blood moon at the feet of the virgin at the equinox point in the last year of the reign of Herod the Great, is that the shift of the equinox axis into Virgo and Pisces as a result of precession was thought to symbolise a messianic transformation of the earth, the emergence of a new consciousness for a new age.

However, the degraded fallen culture of the ancient world was incapable of comprehending this cosmic vision, so it was suppressed, denied, ignored and forgotten. Even so, the virgin did give birth to the avatar, in terms of the visible cosmic symbols, and this event gave rise to our Christian myths of the Nativity as known in the Gospels, and Paul’s discussion in Galatians of Christ as ‘born of a woman’, not literally but celestially.

The woman with the moon at her feet described at Revelation 12:1 is a key precessional image in the Bible. Earlier I provided a diagram of the Passover blood moon at the feet of Virgo in 4 BC. Why I consider this such an interesting event is that the Passover moon at the spring equinox had traditionally occurred in Libra, but due to precession, it now occurred in Virgo. This 4BC eclipse event is a key to understanding the likely popular perception of a shift of ages.

Passover was the main annual Jewish festival, and was a lunar event, timed for the full moon, with large numbers of people coming to Jerusalem. The full moon is usually difficult to place precisely against the stars except for astronomers. It appears full over about ten degrees of arc, about a third of a zodiac sign. It is so bright that most nearby stars become invisible. Without an eclipse, it is difficult for naked eye observation to tell the exact stellar position of opposition to the sun. But with the Passover blood moon, the eclipse dimmed the brightness of the moon making the background stars visible. It also showed the exact point of opposition, which would not otherwise be clear.

Without an eclipse occurring very soon after the equinox, it would normally have appeared in classical times that the Passover moon would be in Libra. In most years, when Passover happened in April rather than March, it would still have appeared in Libra in ancient times. So this event 'the moon at the feet of the woman', describing a specific Passover event in 4BC, could truly have been widely perceived as what the Bible calls it, 'a great sign seen in heaven'.

jakejonesiv · 04-19-2013, 03:18 PM

The are certain passages in the Pauline writings that can be read as implying that Christ is a cosmic event or principle, the mystery of eternity hidden in the heavens.

Is there any possible astral event that could have influenced Pauline Christianity? There is one that was AFAIK first suggested by Dr. Joshua Brown.

In Antiquity, the Southern Cross (Crux) was visible in the Mediterranean on the southern horizon during spring.

Due to the precession of the equinoxes, just at the time of the alleged death of Jesus, the Southern Cross disappeared from view in Jerusalem.

The Cross is just above the "Coal Sack" a large black area caused by a dark nebula obscuring the Milky Way.

Perhaps the Coal Sack would have been interpreted as the grave, death, or the underworld. Photographs of this area of the sky have a reddish color, and the red triple star Alpha Centauri is near by; the blood of the cross.

Pure speculation, of course.

Jake

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-19-2013, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

The are certain passages in the Pauline writings that can be read as implying that Christ is a cosmic event or principle, the mystery of eternity hidden in the heavens.

Is there any possible astral event that could have influenced Pauline Christianity? There is one that was AFAIK first suggested by Dr. Joshua Brown.

In Antiquity, the Southern Cross (Crux) was visible in the Mediterranean on the southern horizon during spring.

Due to the precession of the equinoxes, just at the time of the alleged death of Jesus, the Southern Cross disappeared from view in Jerusalem.

And at what time did the death of Jesus occur? And how long did this disappearance last? Was it sudden or gradual?

Would Paul have known about it?

Jeffrey

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04-19-2013, 01:04 AM	#123
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Hi Robert, Is the woman of Revelation 12, "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head" the "Queen of heaven"? What is the connection, if any, between Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven (Jeremiah 7:18, 44:17,25) and her husband Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14) and Osiris/Isis? How did the term Easter originate? Jake

04-19-2013, 03:18 PM	#129
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	The are certain passages in the Pauline writings that can be read as implying that Christ is a cosmic event or principle, the mystery of eternity hidden in the heavens. Is there any possible astral event that could have influenced Pauline Christianity? There is one that was AFAIK first suggested by Dr. Joshua Brown. In Antiquity, the Southern Cross (Crux) was visible in the Mediterranean on the southern horizon during spring. Due to the precession of the equinoxes, just at the time of the alleged death of Jesus, the Southern Cross disappeared from view in Jerusalem. The Cross is just above the "Coal Sack" a large black area caused by a dark nebula obscuring the Milky Way. Perhaps the Coal Sack would have been interpreted as the grave, death, or the underworld. Photographs of this area of the sky have a reddish color, and the red triple star Alpha Centauri is near by; the blood of the cross. Pure speculation, of course. Jake

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