Steven Carr

As we all know, Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, or failed Messiah.

After his death by crucifixion shocked his movement, they re-examined their beliefs and continued their movement, preaching that this crucified person was the Messiah.

One thing is certain. Jesus definitely said the following, as it is reported by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11 'For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

This is the flagship of the historicist school , as it definitively points to Paul knowing the Last Supper traditions , as reported in (some) Gospels.

Why did Jesus institute that Last Supper on that day? Did he know he was going to be betrayed, or was it just coincidence?

If this is historical, why would Jesus have expected his movement to continue after his death?

Why did Jesus expect his movement to proclaim him Messiah after his death, and accordingly require a meal to remember him by? Were the disciples likely to forget who he had been?

Apart from eating bread and drinking wine in remembrance of him , what else did Jesus expect his movement to do after its Messiah had been crucified? Did Jesus expect his movement to write down his teachings?

On the mythicist school, the founder of the cult is issuing a revelation whereby the cult can obtain access to the body of its founder in a ritual meal.

I know which makes more sense.

avi

Thanks Steven for this interesting post. I agree with your last sentence!!!

I thought it was supposed to be two things: Death and taxes...


Here, I believe, one has the ultimate question for the Christians: What do you believe, given the choices presented in the four gospels:
a. Jesus is God, participating from the very beginning in the creation of the world, and he knows everything, omniscient, and omnipotent.
but then,
b. Jesus states, on at least one occasion, that "only God, the father" knows xyz, whatever xyz happens to be, e.g. the day of judgement, presumably including his own...What is the exact phrase? Something like, "not all the angels, not the holy spirit, only God the father,..." or some such thing.

I don't know, but I suppose that the Christians would argue that he didn't, and that's why he was resurrected, to take charge of the nascent movement, and give it some direction, though he was now in the spirit realm, but with flesh still on his bones, as he invited Thomas to insert his hand into the opening where the spear had entered his abdomen....Hmm. Makes no sense, does it!!?

That's the beauty of religions. If ever one becomes trapped in a logical impasse, one simply invokes... FAITH.

avi

rhutchin

Jesus seems to have known what was coming. We read,

John 13
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

18
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

This was what He had prepared them for.

John 17
6 [Jesus said] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

The meal seems to have been for the benefit of those who would come to know Christ. It would also ensure that His disciples continued to meet regularly and support each other in difficult times.

John 13
31 Therefore, when [Judas] was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

No mythicism here then.

ApostateAbe

It really is an unlikely thing that Jesus knew that he was going to die. A more likely hypothesis is that the Last Supper story is mere myth, to coincide with the Christian interest in believing that Jesus' own death was anticipated and/or intentional. The purpose of the myth seems to be to establish a ritual, to eat bread and drink wine, symbolically representing the blood and body of Christ, in "remembrance" of Jesus, just as the myth according to Paul has it. That is the explanation that is given by the religion, and it seems to make enough sense. If it didn't make sense, then we would need to find another explanation.

Elijah

It would be hell of a coincidence.
Because he was trying to get his followers to follow his example and sacrifice their lives as he did and those acts of faith would help spread the message.
It was just a ritual he was starting to help spread his message of him being the messiah which is what he thought he was.
I think he expected people to consider him as the messiah instead of waiting or worshiping someone else hoping they will save them.
Why would you consider it unlikely for a guy with a messiah complex to have a death wish ? (unless you are only commenting about how close the timing of his death was from the supper was) It’s unlikely for an individual to be willing to embrace his death like that but it’s way more unlikely for history to have not produced a few. I think the basic story of the king sacrificing himself can be found in the story of Codrus so it shouldn’t be something seen as so unlikely IMO but maybe you have some reasoning for why you don’t think it’s possible that I’m unaware of.

ApostateAbe

Jesus himself never actually claimed to be the Messiah, nor the son of God, nor God, in the earliest traditions. He claimed only to be a prophet. It is unlikely (not impossible) that Jesus wished himself dead only because that is normal human nature, especially for someone with the power that Jesus had. My model of Jesus is that of a cult leader, a liar, not a delusional egomaniac. If he were a delusional egomaniac, then it is conceivable that he would have a death wish, but I think my model is better. Cult leaders do sometime commit suicide, but it is rare and normally forced by external circumstances (Jim Jones and David Koresh).

Elijah

Walking around and saying I'm the messiah is different then thinking you are the messiah. If you are actually thinking you are the messiah then it's for the other people to say, not yourself. You just look like a crazy person saying that and it would have probably been a justifiable execution if he did say it to some which would be going against the goal of a clean sacrifice. The guy that is portrayed there couldn't be a better example of a guy who thinks he can save the world, I don't think he should have to proclaim it for you to see that.

You don't have to be a delusional egomaniac to have a messiah complex. Self confidence and a feeling of responsibility for the suffering of those around you are the basic requirements.

Two extremely famous examples in our lifetime is rare to you? Who knows how many other unknown attempts have been cut down by the authority that we never heard about. What about Roman occupation and people starting to think you're somebody as the external circumstances?

spamandham

Ugh. Is it not obvious this was a pre-existing tradition in search of an explanation?

Either early Christians forgot why they were engaged in this tradition, or this "remember me" crap was invented to hide something a bit less savory from a much different earlier view of Christianity, such as the body and blood being some kind of intoxicants, or perhaps a bizarre ritual involving a real animal sacrifice.

Steven Carr

According to Bart Ehrman 'A lot of scholars question whether 1 Cor. 11 contains the actual words of Jesus at his last meal.'

In which case it is surprising that 1 Corinthians 11 is considered to be an obvious refutation of mythicism.

ABE
It is unlikely (not impossible) that Jesus wished himself dead only because that is normal human nature, especially for someone with the power that Jesus had.

CARR
It was remarkably good timing of Jesus to institute that meal just before his whereabouts were betrayed.

After all, he would not have been killed if there had been no betrayal, which would have made his words about remembering him look rather silly if he was still there.

ABE
If he were a delusional egomaniac, then it is conceivable that he would have a death wish, but I think my model is better.

CARR
You don't have to be a delusional egomaniac to think your movement will need a ritual meal to conjure up your blood and flesh, but it helps.

Steven Carr

How could they be disciples of a dead person? Meet to do what? What movement would there have been after their leader was killed?

And they did meet after his death, according to the Gospels. They all went off fishing together :-)