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Old 01-13-2013, 04:58 PM   #1
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Default Was Gen 15:6 Mistranslated?

Paul's theology of justification by faith was cited in Romans 4:3, which quotes Gen 15:6, but it appears to me that the Hebrew in that verse actually states that Abram was praising the righteousness of God for making the promises in the preceding verses rather than God praising the righteousness of Abram for believing in God'd promises. What is your opinion?
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:12 PM   #2
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First note that Jesus is not introduced until the end, i.e. the end of verse 24 plus 25. The whole thing has a different feeling if you delete that verse and a half.
I do not believe this was originally a Christian text at all. It was a cut and paste job using a pre-existing Torah friendly letter adopted by Christians who added some Jesus friendly references.

However the reference is that Abraham accepted the promise as stated that his own son would inherit him, i.e. on faith without asking for a sign in future events the way he did when God promised the Land to his descendants when he was told they would be suffering in another country first. See verse 13. And this was even prior to the covenant of circumcision for his descendants after him starting with Isaac who unlike Ishmael was conceived after the circumcision.

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Originally Posted by Onias View Post
Paul's theology of justification by faith was cited in Romans 4:3, which quotes Gen 15:6, but it appears to me that the Hebrew in that verse actually states that Abram was praising the righteousness of God for making the promises in the preceding verses rather than God praising the righteousness of Abram for believing in God'd promises. What is your opinion?
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:17 PM   #3
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Actually Gen 15:6 does not refer to Jesus. The question I posted was whether you thought Gen 15:6 was mistranslated.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:35 PM   #4
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I was referring to Romans which I thought was the issue in terms of the interpretation. The English in Romans looks like it reflects the Hebrew and targums, although the Greek might be different.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:45 PM   #5
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I had a recent post at my blog along a similar line. This is what you are talking about - ἐπίστευσεν δὲ Ἀβραὰμ τῷ θεῷ καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην. It's also cited the same way in James 2:23. The LXX is ἐπίστευσεν Ἄβραμ τῷ θεῷ, καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην. Mostly quoted exactly (except Abram changed to Abraham). “Abraham believed in God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:9 has ἡ πίστις as the subject: “Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.”
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:57 PM   #6
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Yes, that was the translation in the Greek LXX, but I am referring to the original Hebrew text.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:04 PM   #7
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Reviewing the Hebrew text of Genesis 15:6

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃

v'ha'amen ba'Yahweh v'ya'chashaba l'o tsĕdaqah:

'And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'(KJV)

The traditional understanding is that the LORD ('Yahweh') imputes Abraham's belief as an indication of Abraham's righteousness. And this clearly how the 'Christian' authors understood and employed this text.
The hang up here which you are pointing out, is the identification of whom is the 'he' and the 'him' being referred to;

Is this 'him' -Yahweh who is accounting Abraham to be righteous? (the traditional reading)

OR is it as you are suggesting, that it is Abraham who is that 'him' who is finding the LORD (Yahweh) to be righteous?

Based strictly upon the linguistic construction of Gen. 15:6 the answer would be somewhat ambiguous, and persuasion as to the intent could swing either way depending on ones predilections.
But when the verse looked at in the overall context of the entire Yahweh-Abraham relationship, it is clear that the respect was mutual.
Yahweh honors Abraham as being righteous among men and Abraham in turn honors Yahweh as being the righteous Elohim.
Thus Genesis 15:6 does not need to be held to indicate either the one or the other reading, as though they were in opposition.
As each imputed or recognized the righteous nature of the other.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
Reviewing the Hebrew text of Genesis 15:6

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃

v' ha'amen b'Yahweh v' y'chashaba l'o tsĕdaqah:

'And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'(KJV)

The traditional understanding is that the LORD ('Yahweh') imputes Abraham's belief as an indication of Abraham's righteousness. And this clearly how the 'Christian' authors understood and employed this text.
The hang up here which you are pointing out, is the identification of whom is 'him' being referred to.
Is this 'him' Yahweh who is accounting Abraham to be righteous,
OR is it as you are suggesting, that it is the LORD (Yahweh) who is the 'him' who is finding Abraham to be righteous.
.
Based strictly on the linguistic construction of Gen. 15:6 the answer would be somewhat ambiguous, and persuasion as to the intent could swing either way.
But when looked at in the overall context of the Yahweh-Abraham relationship it is clear that the respect was mutual. Yahweh honors Abraham as being righteous and Abraham in turn honors Yahweh as being righteous. Thus Genesis 15:6 does not need to be held to indicate either the one or the other reading, as though they were in opposition. As each imputed or recognized the righteous nature of the other.
But there is no second 'he'' in the Hebrew verse. The traditional but incorrect reading has an interpolated 'he' and no semicolon. So It really reads:

And he believed in the LORD and counted it to him for righteousness.

If Gen 15:6 is read this way, then Paul's theology of righteousness by faith falls on its face. Romans 4:3 cannot then proceed to build a theology of 'justification by faith" rather than by works.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
I was referring to Romans which I thought was the issue in terms of the interpretation. The English in Romans looks like it reflects the Hebrew and targums, although the Greek might be different.
Yes, but Romans 4:3 quotes Gen 15:6 which is the object of my question.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onias View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
Reviewing the Hebrew text of Genesis 15:6

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃

v' ha'amen b'Yahweh v' y'chashaba l'o tsĕdaqah:

'And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'(KJV)

The traditional understanding is that the LORD ('Yahweh') imputes Abraham's belief as an indication of Abraham's righteousness. And this clearly how the 'Christian' authors understood and employed this text.
The hang up here which you are pointing out, is the identification of whom is 'him' being referred to.
Is this 'him' Yahweh who is accounting Abraham to be righteous,
OR is it as you are suggesting, that it is the LORD (Yahweh) who is the 'him' who is finding Abraham to be righteous.
.
Based strictly on the linguistic construction of Gen. 15:6 the answer would be somewhat ambiguous, and persuasion as to the intent could swing either way.
But when looked at in the overall context of the Yahweh-Abraham relationship it is clear that the respect was mutual. Yahweh honors Abraham as being righteous and Abraham in turn honors Yahweh as being righteous. Thus Genesis 15:6 does not need to be held to indicate either the one or the other reading, as though they were in opposition. As each imputed or recognized the righteous nature of the other.
But there is no second 'he'' in the Hebrew verse. The traditional but incorrect reading has an interpolated 'he' and no semicolon. So It really reads:

And he believed in the LORD and counted it to him for righteousness.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on your translation here Onias.
In the construction of ויחשבה -v'y'chashaba- the second letter י yod is the masculine gender indicator which when so employed is consistently translated as 'he' in the translations of thousands of such Hebrew contructions.
Given that fact, it is doubtful that you will find many scholars of Hebrew that would support your rendering.


(actually there is no 'first' 'he' in the verse. in והאמן -v'ha'amen- literally 'and the believed', that 'he' is not written but is implied, and is supplied in the English rendering.)
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