thegreatbrain

(Hi, I'm new here. Still struggling to figure out where I stand in regards to Christianity...)

I want to learn more about the evidence surrounding Jesus, particularly that of him being the son of God. I would greatly appreciate any links or book recommendations that deal with this subject. Information-packed posts are welcome as well. Both evidence FOR and AGAINST the Christian idea of Jesus are desired.

(I did a quick search and didn't see anything, but if a similar thread has already been posted before—as it no doubt has—feel free to simply direct me there as well.)

Thank you!

jules?

I quite like http://www.jesusneverexisted.com not because I consider it to be without error but it is as good as anywhere to start. It also has links to deeper articles, and links back to the bookshop/articles here as well as direct criticism by apologists. Like every thing; look for multiple sources, triple check and keep an open mind.

Toto

What would you consider evidence for Jesus being the son of God?

jules?

A video perhaps, walking on water, oh hang on; I saw this guy on telly stay underwater for ages, and live in a block of ice and i saw him for real in a box for 40days and nights!

vid

Closest to evidence for Jesus being son of god is what we have in Bible. Note that texts of Bible are not without problems too. There is "synoptic problem", whose best solutions reduce material in Bible (not completely though). To study about this problem, i suggest this site: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=669

Against "jesus was son of god", we could use evidence for different early views on who Jesus was. These can be found in so-called "apocryphal writings", and their catholic rebuttals. There were many sects in early christianity with very diverse theology, some claimed that Jesus was just nonmaterial spirit, some claimed Jesus was enemy of "cruel demon" Yahveh (=God), some claimed Jesus was normal man later chosen by God (as in Gospel of Mark), etc. etc. Most of these sects of christiainity eventualy ceased to exist and/or were banished by roman empire when catholic christianity became state religion. I can't give you single best link here, if you decide to follow your study in this direction, let us know.

I don't agree here. From my experiences this site is too much biased against christianity, doesn't cite/research it's sources, and thus has tendency to repeat untrue or misleading info. Also, it picks up facts very selectively to paint christianity in worst possible light.

If you want some introduction to Jesus-never-lived hypothesis, as that site proclaims, I'd advice you to study Malachi's article:
http://rationalrevolution.net/articl...th_history.htm
And when/if you finish it, then also these two:
http://rationalrevolution.net/articl...h_followup.htm
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

But whether Jesus existed was not exactly point of your question, so you may prefer other direction of study. I suggest you to start with synoptic problem and study of "heresies", to learn what's the problem with current view on Jesus.

PS: All material I suggested is very lengthy, and will probably need few re-reads. That is because problem you are asking about is very complicated.

PhilVaz

greatbrain << I want to learn more about the evidence surrounding Jesus, particularly that of him being the son of God. >>

A comprehensive list, by order of appearance, the books I own:

The Evidence for Jesus by R.T. France (Intervarsity Press, 1986, 2006)
A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (volume 1) by John P. Meier (Anchor / Doubleday, 1991)
The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant by John Dominic Crossan (HarperSanFrancisco, 1991)
The Historical Figure of Jesus by E.P. Sanders (The Penguin Press, 1993)
Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus edited by Wilkins / Moreland (Zondervan, 1995)
The Real Jesus: The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and the Truth of the Traditional Gospels by L.T. Johnson (HarperSanFrancisco, 1996)
Jesus and the Victory of God by N. T. Wright (Fortress, 1996)
The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary Habermas (College Press, 1996)
Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? : A Debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan (Baker Academic, 1998)
The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty (Age of Reason, 1999, 2005)
Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert van Voorst (Eerdmans, 2000)
The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable is the Gospel Tradition? by Robert M. Price (Prometheus, 2003)
What Have They Done With Jesus? by Ben Witherington III (HarperSanFrancisco, 2006)
Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels by Craig Evans (Intervarsity, 2006)
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Eddy / Boyd (Baker Academic, 2007)
Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI (Doubleday, 2007)

Or for starters just three books: The Evidence for Jesus by France, The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Eddy/Boyd, and Jesus Outside the NT by Van Voorst. The "Jesus mythicist" view may be prominent in here, but it is considered idiosyncratic in NT scholarship. So you can effectively skip Doherty and Price and you won't miss much. Eddy/Boyd quote them both extensively anyway. France and Van Voorst deal with G.A. Wells.

Phil P

PhilVaz

As for whether Jesus was the Son of God, that hinges on His bodily resurrection. Your best books on that topic:

The Son Rises by William Lane Craig (Moody, 1981, reprinted 2001)
Resurrection of Jesus: History, Experience, Theology by Gerd Ludemann (Fortress, 1995) <--- recommended by Jeff J. Lowder at Amazon
Jesus' Resurrection: Fact or Figment? A Debate Between William Lane Craig and Gerd Ludemann (Intervarsity Press, 2000)

The Resurrection of the Son of God by N. T. Wright (Fortress, 2003)
The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Habermas / Licona (Kregel Publications, 2004)
The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave edited by Robert M. Price and Jeffery Jay Lowder (Prometheus, 2005)
The Resurrection of Jesus : John Dominic Crossan and N. T. Wright in Dialogue (Fortress, 2006)

Or just read the two debate books: Craig vs. Ludemann (with responses), and Wright vs. Crossan (with responses) and determine for yourself who has the better case. Ludemann represents the atheist/skeptic view, Crossan the "liberal Christian" view of the "Jesus Seminar" while Craig/Wright that of conservative, traditional Christianity.

Phil P

chrisengland

Hello
I don't think coming on an atheist website and asking that question is a good idea.
Christian forum websites are not always trustworthy either.
Some may mention for example Josephus's passage without mentioning that most(I think) scholars don't think it is authentic.
It is hard because skeptics have got it in for Christianity and Christians have got it in for atheism so both are normally quite biased I think.
Perhaps you would be best of just reading books written by New Testament scholars.
Chris

Toto

You might want to check the recommended reading list stickied at the top of this forum page.

Toto

Ludemann does not call himself an atheist, although he rejects the resurrection.

You would do better to read the debate between Ehrman and Craig.

But you might as well avoid Craig - if you have decided you want to believe, he will give you some rationale for your existing beliefs, but he himself says that the source of the beliefs is some internal spiritual experience. If you are not a believer to start with, his arguments are unconvincing.