Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 01-17-2011, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

It is rather curious that Paul tells us nothing of John the Baptist.
I propose that the original writer/s of the Pauline material had no knowledge of Baptism as a Christian ceremony. Rather, we can imagine that they used the word and forms of "baptizo" to mean immersion or submersion in Christ. What could this have meant before the baptism ceremony? This was probably just repeating a long list of talking points about the coming Christ, based on the Hebrew Scriptures, until the neophyte could repeat it by heart. We can think of it as a kind of brainwashing technique. The ceremony simply developed later as a kind of graduation ceremony/Mystery practice reflecting the actual brainwashing or immersion in Christ/Messiah/Savior ideology.

This explains why the character of John the Baptist was unknown to the early Christian writers and how the character of John the Baptist was created to illustrate the abstract concept of immersion in Christ, which we would call today by the term "brainwashing," a concept as unknown back then as flying in airplanes.
I discuss this in my blog here.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Baptism was "into the reign of God" that did not exist before Jesus brought heaven down to earth and therefore only Catholic water will do the trick as we are the only ones with saints in heaven to have communion with.

Now in Luke it was made clear that John came first to prepare the way which for us is the white candle in the advent wreath that we must recognize as our very own in that same advent of our own life which so is the 3rd candle prior to our ascension on Easter sunday . . . after which every day will be sunday as moonday wil never come again. So metaphorically speaking we will ride both the third and forth candle into Rome to make it Home.

And please be reminded that the real price Jesus paid was liberation from the ancient Jewish God and replace them with Christ alone wherefore then the mind of Christ will suffice for us.

Chili · 01-17-2011, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

[Imagine if a bunch of Catholics started a new branch of Christianity based on the idea that Christ is an inner state of being and not some dude form 2000 years ago. They would probably continue with the Eucharist but give it a new spin. A lot of joining Catholics would recognize the ritual of the Eucharist, but not yet quite get the newly ascribed symbolism. It would take a while for the Eucharist to 'gain meaning' and in the meantime, it would remain the same mindless ritual it is for most Catholics. I think this is actually what did happen with teh Eucharist 2000 years ago, and is also what happened with the baptism.

They would be declared anathema like the rest of them that we call 'protestant' today unless they want to ascribe to the Church Suffering as purgatorian and on their own enter the Church Triumphant and never to enter the Sanctuary again where the sheep normally gather to celebrate this "mindless ritual" until they wonder what this senseless 'hokus pokus' is all about and dare to say "no" to it to find out for themselves what the true meaning of it actually is.

I'll go one step further and say that even the priest does not really know what 'it' is all about and he will never be told lest he loses his own earnesty to do 'his thing' as good as he can so at least he does not look like a blind sheep himself (hint, is is good to see that the sheep kiss his ring to maintain the difference between shepherd and sheep . . . even if all he knows is that "hither and thither they go," lol).

Chili · 01-17-2011, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The three really important things to keep your eye on are:

1) the Marcionite gospel did NOT have a baptism by John
2) the Marcionite gospel had a reference to the apolytrosis ritual identified as baptism by Irenaeus in his discussion of the Marcosians (I take the two sects to be one and the same tradition)
3) Tertullian reports that there were sects that understood that Jesus did baptize his disciples and promoted their association with the baptism of Paul. (On Baptism)

Put this all together and there is the strong possibility that the 'baptism for the remission of sins' was developed to obscure an earlier 'heretical' form of baptism.

We should also keep in mind that the Greek βαπτίζω does not necessarily imply water immersion specifically.

John was identified as Mary's son at the foot of the cross after the hubris (sin) of Joseph was removed from his mind and his soul to make 'mind and soul' one and the same which here now becomes the water that Jesus used and so sanctified as Catholic for ages to come.

So now the transmission of John to Jesus remits the OT sin connection that NT people would have in the OT connection as grafted branch on Judiasm. It so made Catholicism a 'blank slate' religion with the dark ages to follow in a NEW Thousand Year Reign.

Chili · 01-17-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Philosopher Jay, I think there is no doubt that Paul really does refer to the concept of baptism in a more spiritual sense, at least most of the time. The competing theory would be:

Baptism was a ritual by John the Baptist of cleansing the body so it is no longer unclean. Christians adopted the ritual, but they expanded the purpose of baptism into cleansing of the soul from sin. Paul knew of this ritual, and he sometimes used the concept as a metaphor for dying and resurrection.

That theory does not seem to require any interpolations in the writings of Paul. At worst, it conflicts with silence of Paul about John the Baptist, which does not seem to be such a problem. What do you think the biggest problem is?

What, exactly, is your theory? How do you outline the development of the baptism doctrine?

Yes but Paul was the fill the mind of all believers in the various stages of their own life so they would connect by way of [Platonic] 'recollection' with the truth and Paul could do that as gnostic who could be 'all things to all people' in that sheep need milk and purgatorians need meat, as some of them, like the Galations were 'bewitched' to say that the place was on fire in those days with Galileans on the prawl all over the place to further the Megiddo Manichean and perhaps various other gnostic movements.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.